Interview with Yolanda Ayubi, August 20, 2014, Chicago, Illinois

SERRANO: What is your name, date of birth and place of birth?

AYUBI: Yolanda Ayubi, I was born in Bogota, Colombia. I don't like to tell my age but I am going to have to. February 24th, 1947. That makes me 67.

SERRANO: What are the names of your parents and what were or are their occupations?

AYUBI: I have an interesting background as far as family. Every one of my parents or grandparents is from a different country. My father was born in Lebanon, his name is Hachim Ayubi. My mom was born in Colombia, Josefa Ayubi of Jewish background. So I have a mix, I have Greek and Turkish and French. I have such a mix just in my parents and grandparents. I was raised in an international environment with 6 languages, four religions, and food from all over the world. 00:01:00So my background is kind of unique. United Nations. But I love it, the fact that I could develop myself in an international environment.

SERRANO: Do you have any siblings? And what are their names?

AYUBI: We were nine children. Unfortunately, my older sister died from breast cancer which is one of the causes that I fight for right now. And Victoria, my second sister, then Yolanda, Josefina, Estelle, Herman, Abraham, Amira, y Farid. So we are a large family.

SERRANO: If not born in Wisconsin, when did you come or were brought to the U.S.?

AYUBI: I was born in Bogota, Colombia, as I told you. And I was. . . I came here when I was 22 years old. Very naïve, from an overprotected family. And that is 00:02:00key because I didn't know much about reality in the United States. The image that I had is the image of people with money who come to Miami to shop and go back. So it was a fun United States; that is the image that I had when I came here. I came in an exchange program called Amity program, which brings 100 students from the Universities to come here to learn about the American culture and exchange views from our countries. Usually, they look for people who have a form of art, and I have learned how to dance since I was very young, so that appealed. I came to West Bend, Wisconsin. I was the only women that came in the group; we were six, five guys and me. I was really the only brown person in the 00:03:00whole town. That was very interesting because I was considered kind of exotic. I remember walking down the streets and people looking, literally stopping cars. We are talking about early 1970, '71, and people were literally stopping and looking at me. Fortunately, I was very extroverted and I kind of didn't care. I think if I was shy, I think it would have forced me to go back to Colombia. So, I learned to survive with that but, being one of a kind was a plus. "Threat" is when there's a group. So, that's something interesting politically, looking at one is exotic. A group is a threat.

SERRANO: How would you define a community activist?

AYUBI: A community activist is somebody who goes against the status quo when the 00:04:00status quo allows oppression of people. As simple as that. And you use every avenue possible to do that. And it is very interesting because I have learned to use all of them at different times.

SERRANO: How would you identify yourself? Latina, Chicana, Mexican, Mexican American, Feminist?

AYUBI: I identify myself as a citizen of the world. Because you heard about my background, I fight for the causes of everybody. At the time that I was fighting for the Latinos, I emphasized the aspect of Latina. And, right now, I work a lot with handicap people, and I identify with them. When I was a principle of a school for troubled children, I identified with kids that were abused. So, depending on the cause, I identify and I fight for that cause. So, every time 00:05:00there is oppression, I don't tolerate it. I try to do my best to continue to improve the situation.

SERRANO: Who was your role model and what characteristics did you model after this person and why?

AYUBI: It was kind of interesting, when I went to Milwaukee, and I know people in Milwaukee remember me more for my media activist role. I had the cameras, I didn't know about Latinos in the United States. I told you I came very naive and programmed to think the United States only has one side. Which, it has that side; the United States had the beautiful side, the ugly side. When I learned about the oppression of the minority communities, I started thinking, "How can I help?" And I remember one time I saw Lupita Bejar. She was known as la cantante 00:06:00del barrio, cantante del pueblo, the singer of the Latinos. I saw her singing to hundreds of thousands of people. And she was with such a love, and not asking for anything, and marching with Cesar Chavez. I looked at her and said, "Wow! With her music she is transforming the whole community." And I loved it. So I did the same thing with the television, with the media.

SERRANO: So what pushed you to kind of follow her roles, her characteristics?

AYUBI: Her gutsy behavior, which later we were known, even at the University of Wisconsin because we would do things that nobody else would do. [inaudible] We were always organizing and rallies, she got into a hunger strike. They saw us 00:07:00together all the time and this is what they would do [puts hands up]. When they saw us. So they knew we were trouble because the two together was a funny combination.

SERRANO: How was your experience when coming to Milwaukee?

AYUBI: As I told you before, I was very naive. I came to West Bend, Wisconsin living a life of the very rich. I was living with families that had a lot of money. On weekends they would take me to the ballet, to the symphony, to all these activities, going through the freeway. So I never saw a barrio. I never saw a Latino because that was not a time when a Latino would walk into a ballet or symphony. So when I went to Milwaukee, I went to visit some friends and I was going to go back to Colombia, because I was going to do dating games since I had 00:08:00a degree in television, an associate degree in television, I was going to do that. But there was a group of leaders fighting for equal access to media. Which African Americans had been doing that and PBS had the first African American local show with Ray Moor at that point in Milwaukee. There was no Hispanic show, and these leaders fought. They were talking to all different kinds of media. Commercial obviously they say, "You don't have money, we don't care about you." PBS was hesitant to even do it, and they said, "You give me somebody who knows, who has a degree in media, and I will give you the show." I happened to be here on my way to Colombia, and it was when I found out the need was there. I had to make a choice that was very hard for me. If I went to Colombia, I would be 00:09:00living a nice life with maids and everything. I wouldn't have to worry economically the rest of my life. If I stay here, I don't know what I was doing. I would be taking a risk. I didn't even know what was a "barrio". I didn't know what was a ghetto community. I did not have any idea. So when I was asked, "Would you stay and apply because you are our only alternative?" I called Colombia, I called my mom. I said, "Mom, if I stay longer here, is that okay with you? Because they need me here". My mom practically said, "Forget about us." Since that time, I never received a penny from my house. So, I remember I only had 100 dollars with me. I didn't have a place to live; I didn't have anything. I had to trust these people who were telling me to do something for 00:10:00the community when my family already, I was not going to have their backing. I didn't have a place to live. I only have 100 dollars. They made a collection and they gave me 500 dollars. Somebody said, "You can live here". I didn't know the city. The next day they took me to the PBS station to apply and I was interested because the application was not a regular resume. It was done with pressure and threats and conflicts. The police was around because it was a demand for the community for equal access to media. And believe me, no television station was ready to do that.

VILLANUEVA: So with all these experiences going on in Milwaukee, how would you explain your experience?

AYUBI: I love Milwaukee emotionally, I love Milwaukee a lot. Chicago, I learned 00:11:00to love it, it is a beautiful city but my heart is in Milwaukee because that's where I learned what life was all about. That's where I felt that I learned the most. What was interesting is that I seen this, I went back to school, I got my bachelors in community organizing. They call it community education. And it was interesting because the leaders were there, a lot of African American leaders were there that were aldermen or in high positions but, they did not have degrees because they never had the opportunity to go to school. So the theory that I learned at the University of Wisconsin- and I am so thankful for that- the practice, it was just learning by doing it, my dear. So I would say it was a wonderful experience, I grew very fast.

VILLANUEVA: So you spoke about how you had never even seen a barrio and had 00:12:00drove past it so how did you become active in the community in terms of volunteering or media initially in Milwaukee? What was your first encounter?

AYUBI: Have you noticed that politically, if you look at the life of Fidel Castro or Che Guevara and some of those people, all of them came from educated classes because they have to open the doors. The doors are not open to the community. Somebody has to open it. So, what I noticed was that by becoming "polished" in the mainstream world, and then the doors were open. I had the context. I was dating somebody who had a lot of power, and I was living among people in power. That open doors. So what happened is I opened the door and the community came behind me. And I loved it. And many times, what happened is, somebody like me, who doesn't come from the community, we have the role. And I 00:13:00think I play it well. In the process I became very much an activist like you couldn't believe it because when we get converted, we become worse than the people who are born under those conditions, and that happened to me. My family started calling me names, "ay, she's becoming [inaudible], she's becoming this and she's becoming that". Because my family happened to be conservative. People with money, conservative. So I was speaking radically, and every time they went to Milwaukee I had to have a show, or a sport, or music so they wouldn't have a heart attack. So I had to learn how to survive in two different worlds. So I could function very well when I was invited to the White House, with no problem, 00:14:00or when I was boycotting and marching with the community and the police come and arrested Lupita. But, they didn't arrest me because I was media. But I was there marching and boycotting. Because I believe we use different strategies of activism based on the issues. So I have been Saul Alinksy, I took his course, I had been as conflicted as Saul Alinsky. Radical, boycotting, doing whatever it takes, kill me if you want to, that kind of attitude, all the way to using Gandhi's and Cesar Chavez's specific way of resistance of "we are going to not cooperate, we are going to not be obedient but we are not going to use violence". We have used that. An activist could be there, "Rah, rah, rah" and 00:15:00doing a lot of noise, and getting things done. A reformer is sure that the reform is done, and will not quit until a change is made. That's my way of operating. And if I know if I need to go very radical, I go that route. If I need to go medium, lukewarm, I go like that. If I need to go conservative, I do that. As long as there is a change.

VILLANUEVA: So you mentioned that your family protested your beliefs and your career. Can you recall an instance in your life where you realized they were going to be against you with this?

AYUBI: You know, they loved me. And, out of love, they knew that I was putting my life at risk, and they didn't want that. You know parents and siblings, they come from certain values and they see you step out in an area that is risky- 00:16:00they do try to protect you in an area where there is possibility that you could be killed, then they try to protect you. I understood, I used empathy, and I understood where they were coming from. It was easy for me to understand them. And when I went to Colombia, I played "the game" there. And when I came back, I came with my views. So, I learned to swing it. You will see me still as an activist, reformist, advocate, hundred years old. Even if I have to go with a cane, I will not change because it's the most, the richest life, the most satisfying life that I can live. My family made a lot of money, I didn't. First, I don't own anything. I don't own a house, I don't own a car, I don't own anything based on principals, not because I don't have the money, because I'm not immortal. Owning is an illusion, and we have been brainwashed to think that 00:17:00we own anything. We don't own anything. So, I had the opportunity, I lease a car, I rent office, I rent apartment, I rent everything. And if I want to have a luxurious experience, I go and rent it, get it out of my system, and move on. You have to be mortal. It's an illusion.

VILLANUEVA: How do you see the category "Hispanic" as being a created category, something that was mentioned in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

AYUBI: What is interesting is that I did my dissertation on the ethnogenesis of the Hispanic community in the United States, which is based on location, nationality. There are many factors. This is very sad because we are not united. The federal government decided to give us the name of "Hispanic", ignoring that we are a mix. What makes us so rich culturally, is the mix that we have of the 00:18:00Europeans, the Spanish, the Native people, also the Africans, and the mixes of all those cultures makes us very rich. In the United States, what people do not understand is that everything is black or white. When the division is started, it was Black or White. As simple as that. We made a mess out of the census, and I talk about that in my dissertation. They didn't know what to do with us. Because in the Hispanic community you have from the very, very, very, blonde to the very, very, very, black, and all these browns in the middle. And we are a cultural mix, racially, mentally, intellectually, and every way that you can think. So that makes us very unique. These issues, the United States have not 00:19:00been able to handle us at all. The census keeps changing. One time they measured us by Spanish surname, which means I was not a Latina. Another time it was by race, what race are we? Are we a brown race, ideologically? That's what we are ideologically. So we come in every color, it's fascinating. We are a very complicated, we are the most complicated segment of the American culture, and they haven't figured it out. And you know what is the bad thing? That we haven't figured us out. The reason is that we have not united ourselves, and only until we unite under one umbrella, and we stop this silly thing about nationality, or class, or thinking of political ideology. Until we don't change that and we come under one umbrella, they are going to decide how we call ourselves, where we going to live, what lifestyle, and everything. They are going to continue deciding for us as a group because we haven't decided ourselves because we fight 00:20:00over leftovers. Only when we are one, and unison. People tell me that's very hard, no. I'm half Arab. The Arabs, yes, there are differences but, they have been able to unite and they have the money. So some countries have been able to do it. They have so many, like us, they have one language but many countries. They have Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and many, many countries. But they unite themselves, at least the front. We have not been able to do that.

VILLANUEVA: You spoke earlier how you had problems. . . or, how being from a different class helped you in activism in Milwaukee. Have you ever been outcasted because of your class or because of your diverse heritage?

AYUBI: My nationality was never a problem. My class was a problem with the Hispanics. I will tell you, I was attacked one time because I lived at Univillage, in the same place that the mayor was living at that point. They told me, "How come you're representing us when you are not from the barrio? You are not one of us". I said, I never said that I came from the barrio, from the community. I always had been telling my identity, I came, I don't have to be camouflage and lie and say what I am. I am my own identity. I said, I am accepting you as you are, please accept me as I am.

VILLANUEVA: What was your biggest obstacle in working in television, because you've had so much success. So what was the biggest challenge?

AYUBI: I was not always welcome, and I always do whatever I want but, I don't 00:22:00always tell that I am going to do it. So I would say working with Hispanic men, leaders, when they saw women leaders, I don't think they were ready for us. Unfortunately, the machismo, especially my generation, was very, very strong. It is changing with the new generation because the younger generations, like you, are in college together and you mingle together. It is getting much better. But still we haven't come to equality. If the American women have not, can you picture the Latinas? So, that was an issue, and I was threatened and made fun of because I am little. They would say things about, "why don't you get married and have children?" I decided when I was 15 years old that I was going to dedicate 00:23:00my life to two things: to work to improve humanity, which is what I'm doing, and to travel around the world, and I have been doing both. Sometimes it's hard and I admire the women and the men who are working very hard and have families and producing changes. It's so hard to do both. I don't know what kind of energy you need to do both. To them, I tip my hat because for me, it was hard. I don't have anything, I don't even have a cat or dog. Could you picture mother, worker, activist? I really admire, those are the people I admire a lot. What's interesting is, people ask me, "Have things changed because there are more television programs in Spanish?" You yourselves are doing this, and you are in 00:24:00the field where I was at. At my time I was at, there was no other Hispanic woman doing this. Quantity has increased. There are many, many programs that have oriented to Hispanic channels and everything. Quality, not! And let me tell you why. We are hooked into soap operas, novelas. What kind of education is there? People, instead of learning, are hooked into that. I am telling them, be an entrepreneur. The time that you are wasting, three hours, four hours a day. You learn to entrepreneur, we are trying to reach them, and instead of wasting your time in front, and I know [they] are tired from working. But, if we want to get ahead we have to sacrifice. We sacrifice, my generation, to open the doors to your generation. You do it for the next generation. So things are somewhat 00:25:00quantitatively better. Qualitatively? I still question it.

VILLANUEVA: What other causes have you been involved in?

AYUBI: A lot of the causes I have been involved in, they were Anglo money and corporate money. I was getting funding through my connections. But, I have to say I didn't have to brown nose anybody. I showed the Anglo world that the reality in numbers are power. So let's say, if I was asking money related to health, I would say, "Hey, who are going to be the ones going to the hospitals?" The fastest growing population, the Hispanics. So I talk about opportunity cost. What they would lose if they did not help the community. What they would lose, that was my approach. And it was not I didn't need to convince them about 00:26:00anything. I showed just numbers and reality. And how if the Hispanic community reached the majority middle-class, there was a big market there. So let's go back to the question that you told me. I was involved in television as a media activist. I was involved in, which I love it because I got involved with the voting, immigration, women's rights, family rights, you name it. Sports, music, everything, food, restaurants, church, anything. I loved that one. I was also was involved with the Milwaukee Hispanic coalition which was an organization I started with 20 people. One day, I called 20 friends and I said, "I want to form 00:27:00a Hispanic coalition". I said, "I don't care if you are American, or if you're Hispanic, the only requirement is that you have to be working with the Hispanic community. Serving in the Hispanic community." So I had some lawyers form the legal action. I had people from all backgrounds. With those 20 friends I started the Milwaukee Hispanic Coalition. It grew to 2,000 members, 200 organizations. It grew beyond me so much that I had to go to the Social Development Commission and said, "Help me!" Social Development Commission was the large organization helping in social justice, helping minority communities. At that point Don Sykes was the director. I went there and talked to him. There were mostly African Americans. I said, "I have this monster that is growing beyond me". They helped me with funding, so I could hire people so it could kept growing and growing. 00:28:00The meetings were so interesting because we talked to the chief of police, we had so much power, that the chief of police wanted agenda. They wanted it, they contacted us. I said only if you tell us how many Hispanic policemen you are hiring, and how much community policing you are having there. And a lot had to do, and Chief Arreola, I know it was somebody that we could negotiate with at that point, a Hispanic chief police. We were also negotiating with Norquist, with the alderman, our mayor Norquist, about the issues that were relevant to the community with the politicians. So there was a lot of negotiation. We had meetings, it was not easy, and then people say, "How come it grew so fast?" Let me tell you how: easily! Somebody would shout form the meetings of three or four 00:29:00hundred people meeting, they would shout and say, "You are not doing anything for Hispanic housing!" I said, "Wonderful, what is your name?!" And they say, "Pedro Rodriguez". I say, "You, is there anyone else who would like to be a part of that committee? Pedro Rodriguez, I say Maria Fernandez. Pedro Rodriguez and Maria Fernandez are the head of the committee on housing. We are going to meet with you and now you are going to work in the same area that you are asking us to work. It is our project, it is not my project". So, that is why it kept growing. So I believe that changes have to go from inside. The problem is when we let the outside fix our problem because they don't understand it. You have to be inside and see how it grows. That's how I did it, and it grew so much that it 00:30:00was incredible. When I left, unfortunately, there was not another Yolanda. I felt bad because I had to leave and there was not another Yolanda to take over. Like the same thing why no one replaced the Yolanda Ayubi Presenta television show. And that's what is sad. Even though we were grooming leaders, the thing is it takes more than leadership, it takes guts, it takes willing to risk your life. And it's interesting because when you are into causes, you don't care.