Interview with Carmen De La Paz, July 21, 2015

GÓMEZ: Carmen, this is such a pleasure for Tess and I to interview you. Again, today, and today is July 21st, 2015. Thank you again, Carmen.

DE LA PAZ: Thank you.

GÓMEZ: And we wanted to ask you some questions that you may have answered in the past but this way we'll have it all on this record.

DE LA PAZ: Okay. No problem.

GÓMEZ: Carmen, we understand that you were born in Puerto Rico?

DE LA PAZ: Si. San Juan, Puerto Rico.

GÓMEZ: San Juan, okay. That's a wonderful place. And when did you first come to Wisconsin and what brought you here?

DE LA PAZ: I came in November of 1967, and the reason I came to Waukesha was because my husband was in Vietnam, and after he got off in Vietnam, he came to Waukesha to visit his father. And he decided to stay and then a month after I join him with my daughter.

GÓMEZ: Wonderful. Well, Waukesha must have been a little bit different than San Juan.

DE LA PAZ: Oh, yes. Definitely. Especially in November and December.

GÓMEZ: [Laughter] Yeah, it's so mucky out.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah.

GÓMEZ: Carmen, we know of your active involvement in the city of Waukesha and beyond.

DE LA PAZ: Yes.

GÓMEZ: Are there any childhood remembrances that you would like to share with us that maybe had the [inaudible] to shape your decision to become involved in the community? So were there things happening to you in your childhood that you think influenced you. . . [talking over each other]

DE LA PAZ: Okay, I was very lucky, I had a very, very beautiful childhood. I was the only girl with five boys and being the only girl at home, I had special treatment, but at the same time I had to function at the same level as the other 00:02:00brothers and friends that they had, and because of that I became a leader within the boys.

GÓMEZ: Ah.

DE LA PAZ: Yes, I had to be a strong person and I had to be able to. . . I was to be able to function at the same level as the boys.

[talking over each other]

DE LA PAZ: I was a tomboy. [laugher]

ARENAS: That was my question!. What did you do that was equal to the boys, in what world. . .

DE LA PAZ: Oh my gosh.

ARENAS: Was it sports, was it playing cops and robbers and you got to play a bad guy even though you were a girl? I mean, can you give us an example?

DE LA PAZ: Well, yes. It was fun. It was rough, it was tough. Because at that time I'm talking about the 1940s, okay, at that time, the girls, they were not allowed to ride bicycles, or to ride roller skates or to fight or anything 00:03:00like that or wear pants. Such a simple thing, girls were not allowed to do that. But me being in a group of boys, I wear pants, I was able to ride bicycle. I was a good, good roller skater, I used to play baseball and I used to fight. I used to box.

ARENAS: You boxed?

DE LA PAZ: With the other boys. I used to box with the other boys.

ARENAS: How old were you when you were boxing?

DE LA PAZ: 10 years old. And I'll be honest with you, when I have a girl, but I don't think that I will never, never do that to her. There was a rule at home, from my father that, and we had, the gloves that we used were professional boxing gloves, so they were big and heavy. My father used to have a friend, 00:04:00Santana, I remember, and he was a coach of the boxers in Puerto Rico, and every time he had leftovers that were not good, he gave it to my father, and because of the boys. And also we have to lift weights. At that time we didn't have any fancy weights that we have now and my father used to make those with two big cans with cement and a big bar in the middle. So, I had to do that, too.

ARENAS: Oh my god.

DE LA PAZ: Yes.

ARENAS: That's amazing. I never knew that. Okay, now keep going. Keep going.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. So, the rule at home was that when I fight, I was not supposed to cry. And I remember that my father put a bandana around my hair, my head, and then I had to fight with other boys. And I was not allowed to fight-- I mean, to cry. If my father saw that I was losing, then my older brother had to jump in.

ARENAS: Okay.

DE LA PAZ: Okay? But I did good. I really had good punches and at that time I had to lift too, those big weights, las pesas, we called it pesas, okay? And they were kind of, I mean, rustic. They were homemade. But I had to do all that. And I played, my brother, one of my brothers played Tarzan and I was Jane.

[Laughter]

DE LA PAZ: So, I had to climb the trees and I had to climb the fences. It was fun. It was fun.

ARENAS: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah.

ARENAS: That's fantastic.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. So I had a very, very, very, very, good childhood. And I think because of that, being the only girl with so many boys around, I had to survive, I had to be a leader.

ARENAS: Yeah.

GÓMEZ: Carmen, where do you fall in the order of your family? Were you the oldest or the youngest?

DE LA PAZ: No, no. I was the. . . We were six and I was the fifth one.

GÓMEZ: Ah, okay.

DE LA PAZ: Yes/

GÓMEZ: So you really had to kind of try to keep up with your older brothers.

DE LA PAZ: Yes, yes, very much. But they were very nice to me. They were very, very good. And another thing that I will never do [inaudible] with my younger brother, my father, because my father wanted me to be able to survive in the society because like I said, at that time girls weren't' allowed to do anything like that, and I was able to do it. And I even fought, you know, pelear with my youngest brother, because my father asked me to do that with my brother.

GÓMEZ: Ay.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah, yeah. I will not do that with my own kids, but that was fun, it was fun, yeah, it was fun.

GÓMEZ: And why did he feel that he wanted to make sure that you were able to survive?

DE LA PAZ: I mean that he doesn't want his daughter maybe to be abused by a man. And he wanted to make sure that I was able to defend myself, and he also considered very important for me to go to college.

GÓMEZ: Ah.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. So, I think he prepared me for life.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: But you know what? I have such a good husband. I was blessed. He never, never, never touched me. Never. So he's respect me as a woman and I love him as a man, too. Yeah, it was interesting to be a child. But you know what, I was telling a friend yesterday that I would not change anything about my life, because she was talking about how bad her childhood was, and I said, you know if 00:08:00I could go back, I would do everything the same way.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: Yes.

GÓMEZ: You were mentioning that you were born in San Juan and grew up there.

DE LA PAZ: Yes.

GÓMEZ: How then would you define your ethnic identity?

DE LA PAZ: I'm Puerto Rican. I'm Puerto Rican. I was born as a US citizen, but I consider myself to be 100% Puerto Rican. Yes.

GÓMEZ: And did your identity change at all over the years?

DE LA PAZ: No.

GÓMEZ: Waukesha?

DE LA PAZ: No, no, no, no. I can tell you that I've been in Waukesha for 40. . . maybe 47, 48 years, I have never been able to dream in English.

GÓMEZ: [Laughter]

DE LA PAZ: Never. And all of my dreams are with people from Waukesha, but it's in Puerto Rico. I don't know why. I ask people, why? I have never been able to 00:09:00dream in English. Yeah.

GÓMEZ: Yeah. That's wonderful.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. Yeah.

GÓMEZ: Well, we've come to learn a little bit more about how you define community activism and more so, actually even more important than that, how you define all of your community service in Waukesha and the ripple effect that you've created beyond Waukesha. Would you share with us how you would define your community service?

DE LA PAZ: Our community service right now is not only for the Hispanic community, it is for whoever is in need. Because we have to. . . not all the Hispanic people have needs. And everybody, we're from. . . I should say the same category, the only thing is that we don't speak the same language and we don't 00:10:00come from the same countries, but at the bottom of the line we have the same needs. So we have so many services that we provide to the community, and I feel proud to say that I have been able to work in the development of some of the services and also to see that the services have been provided to the people that really, really, really need the services.

GÓMEZ: So with that description that you just defined, would you call yourself a community activist, Carmen?

DE LA PAZ: Myself?

GÓMEZ: Si.

DE LA PAZ: Yes, I always been, and I think I always will be.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: Yes.

GÓMEZ: You had mentioned on your profile that you thought community and that a community activist wasn't just like a one-time deal. Or that's what. . .

DE LA PAZ: No. . .

GÓMEZ: . . .I believe you said? Could you say a little bit further about that?

DE LA PAZ: Okay. You know what, I was thinking about that today. And if you ask me if my activism is the same way as way back, I should say no, I would say no. And there's many, many reasons why. When I came to Waukesha 47 or 48 years ago, I remember that Waukesha was completely different in many, many different aspects. The Hispanic community was very small, and the majority were Mexicans and they were not well educated. They were very hard workers. They came to work in the foundries. At that time we had many, many foundries in Waukesha. Where big families and with a lot of kids. . . In the family I only had two and because of that, people were not able to go to school to get educated. So they didn't know what was available for them. And it was my responsibility as the 00:12:00same way as other people that were working together with me to see that those people in need receive what the services that they need. And we have to fight a lot of [inaudibles], I worked here in Milwaukee for many years and the same need that we had in Waukesha is the needs that we had in Milwaukee. But my concern was here, being from Puerto Rico, and at that time there were not many Puerto Ricans in Waukesha, there were many, many, many Mexican families and to be honest with you, I don't have any close friends that are Puerto Ricans. All of my friends that I have considered them my family have been from Mexico. I have my prima, which is Graciela, and she is from the. . . I think it's Durango. I have my sister, Josie, she's from La Cuidad de Mexico, Mexico City. I have 00:13:00Maria, we call her Chita, which is my other sister, she's from Coahuila. And my family from Mexico, myself being from Puerto Rico. So even if I consider myself 100% Puerto Rican, my close family are from Mexico, and I am very proud to say that. And that's because of the consequences of me being so close to the Mexican families. I remember going back to the [inaudible] farms early in the morning. It was not my job to drive the van, to get the children for the farmers, the migrant workers to bring them here to the casa and keep them here all day, take them back in the afternoon, but that was a pleasure for me to do it. I never, never complained that I had to get up early in the morning to go and get those 00:14:00kids. I remember when I visit the family at the [inaudible] farm, la ganja, el rancho? And me coming from the family that I was. . . we were not wealthy but we had everything that we needed, and to see the condition of those families, the way they lived and they were very happy. They were very, very happy. The children they didn't have any toys to play, but they were outside, they were with the piedras, with the rocks, and throwing things, and you know that taught me, me enseño mucho, me enseño a valorar la vida, a valorar lo que yo tengo and to value my people, too.

GÓMEZ: Wow.

ARENAS: Beautiful. Beautiful.

DE LA PAZ: Thank you.

GÓMEZ: I wrote these questions to ask about that. And what started off your activism, Carmen?

DE LA PAZ: Well, I started in Puerto Rico. I started in Puerto Rico.Like I said, my father was. . . he was very involved in politics, era bien politico. He was very involved. And I was always. . .

ARENAS: In what movement? In what kind of movement was he involved?

DE LA PAZ: Political Issues, Political. . .

ARENAS: Oh. alright. . .

DE LA PAZ: He was involved, yeah. And because of that, I remember being the only girl we went to, we would call the meetings that we would have on the street when the candidate is running for any position, for the governor or the senate or whatever. We had to have meetings on the street where they have the stage and they jump on the stage and [inaudible] all allowed. I was five, six, seven years old and I had to go with my mom and my father to those meetings.

ARENAS: Wow.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. So I was raised in this political environment. So when I was fifteen or sixteen years old, I was to work as the volunteer in the. . . We call 00:16:00it Comité. The Comités was a. . . when the one party, let's say los republicanos o los democratas, they had their own office and it was run by volunteer people. So I had to do that. I used to register people to vote.

ARENAS: Wow.

DE LA PAZ: So I have been involved in political issues and activism since I was a child. So that's why I consider myself a very strong person too.

GÓMEZ: Yeah. Carmen, what motivated your father and mother to become involved so much in political issues in Puerto Rico?

DE LA PAZ: I was so young. I was so young that I cannot tell you exactly why. My father was a supervisor at una compania de barcos en Puerto Rico, that they bring the loads the food and everything, that he was the supervisor, and he was 00:17:00involved with the union.

E&ARENAS: Ah.

DE LA PAZ: Yes, he used to go to a lot of meetings away from home for days to organize people. And maybe I have that, I got that organization skill from him. Yeah.

ARENAS: Can you talk a little bit about your mom? [talking over each other]

DE LA PAZ: My mom was a house wife.

ARENAS: Okay.

DE LA PAZ: My mom. . . well, you know what? My father double my mom's age. At that time, it was not a big issue that a 14 or 15 years old marry with a 30 or 35 year old man. Today's a big thing, okay, for legal issues.

ARENAS: Right.

DE LA PAZ: What I know is that my mom was 14 when she married my father. Well, they were not married. They lived together. And my father told my mom that the woman that gave him a son, you know, a son? He would marry that person. He would 00:18:00marry that woman.

ARENAS: Wow.

DE LA PAZ: And my mother happened to gave him five boys.

ARENAS: Yeah, yeah.

DE LA PAZ: So he marry her. But she was always a housewife.

ARENAS: Ah.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah, she'd stay home with us. But she being so young, people, our neighbors at the beginning said that she was the older sister, that she was taking care of our brothers.

ARENAS: And your father?

DE LA PAZ: And that my father was a widow.

ARENAS: Oh, he was a widow when he married your mother.

DE LA PAZ: No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. He was not a widow. But my mom was so young, she was only 14 or 15, that when she start having babies, when new people moved to the neighborhood, they thought that my mom was our sister.

ARENAS: Oh my goodness. Oh my.

DE LA PAZ: And she was raising us and my father was a widow.

ARENAS: I get it, okay.

DE LA PAZ: Because she was very, very, very young. Well, she had my oldest 00:19:00brother when she was 15. So we grew up and we got old with my mom.

ARENAS: Okay, that helps, thank you.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah, yeah. She was a good housewife. Yeah.

ARENAS: Yeah. Okay.

GÓMEZ: Carmen, when you started to describe Waukesha when you first in there 47 years or so ago, and you had mentioned that the Puerto Rican community then was very small in Waukesha and that the majority there were Mexican or Mexican American and many were migrants.

DE LA PAZ: Yes.

GÓMEZ: Are there any other ways that you would want to describe Waukesha at the time that you became involved in the community?

DE LA PAZ: It still is a very, very conservative city. Waukesha is very conservative, but it is a very good city to live. At the beginning when I came, there were not Afro-Americans living in Waukesha. I think at that time there was 00:20:00only one, I remember his name was Johnny Shoeshine because he was a shoemaker. And they called him Johnny Shoeshine. And Johnny, you know, people look at you, when I came to Waukesha we came to live in an apartment and I remember that the manager of the apartment told us, told my husband, that the neighbors, it was four apartments, a building of four apartments. The other three neighbors when they knew that he was renting to a Puerto Rican family, they were against you. They told the manager that if he rent to us, they will move.

ARENAS: Oh no.

DE LA PAZ: They will move, yes, and my daughter, she was only a year older, yes, only a year and a half. And they have, I remember one of the families that lived 00:21:00right across from my door, we faced door to door, they didn't allow their kids to talk to my daughter or to play with my daughter. But, listen to this. We lived in those apartments only two years, because right after, right away my husband was able to buy a house. When we moved, I remember he was a teacher in the public schools. When they knew that we were buying a house, they came to our house and said that we were the best neighbors they ever had.

ARENAS: Oh my god.

DE LA PAZ: So they were very sorry that we moved. And when we moved to our new house, the next-door neighbors, the wife was from Germany, and the other neighbors. . . well, we were the only Hispanics. They didn't like us. They didn't like us. The oldest boy of the next door, I remember that I used to watch 00:22:00in the basement and they used to come and knock on my windows in the basement, and they went up and they rang the doorbell when we opened. I mean, they were very mean to us, very, very mean to us. But passing the years and my husband says, "You know what? We have to show them what kind of a people we are. Don't worry, honey." He used to call me "honey". "Don't worry, honey." And after few years I can tell you that they loved us. They cleaned the snow for us, and they were very helpful for us. They loved us. And up to today, our neighbors are the best people we ever had. Yeah. But yes, at the beginning it was kind of a little hard. We didn't find the food that we eat. We had to go to Chicago to buy. I used to buy the rice by 100 pound. To bring home 100 pound of rice, to buy everything that we need by big quantity, because there were not grocery stores, 00:23:00well, not in Waukesha. In Milwaukee, El Rey opened many, many years after, so it was a little hard, but remember I came to live with my husband and he was the love of my life. So I didn't miss my family, I didn't even miss the weather.

GÓMEZ: [laughter]

DE LA PAZ: I came in November, and I was happy, because I was with my love, with my husband. It was different. And talking about the people, because I mentioned to you a little before that the activism way back is different than today. .

ARENAS: How so? How is it different?

DE LA PAZ: Okay, like I said way back, people don't know the language. Their jobs were in foundries, they were not well educated, but they had children. 00:24:00Those children, they became very professional. And today we don't have to deal too much with the language. We don't have to deal too much with not having bilingual teachers, because many of my students that came to Escolipa, to a 30 years ago, 35 years ago, they're teachers at the public schools. They are social workers. And they are very, very, very professional people. And those are the ones that are helping other people, but the need is not as big as way, way back. So today the activism is yes, we still have the Dreamers, that'a the big thing now, that is the activism that we had many, many years ago that we had to walk, 00:25:00march on the streets for them to let them know our need. Today is different. Today is different. Even the people that walk through our doors that they work maybe let's say at McDonald's, they know the language. And even if they come, the first thing they do come to our agency looking to learn English as a second language. "How can I enroll myself to learn English?" And there goes the same people come and say, "Okay, how can I become, what I have to do to become a US citizen?" You know, the people today, they are more, more, I don't know, better educated than way, way back.

GÓMEZ: Okay.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah. So that is the difference. But still myself? Today? Let's take today, okay? I had a meeting, I was supposed to be in a meeting at 3:00 here at 00:26:00the agency, 5-3. The courthouse called me because they had a couple that they want to get married and they didn't know the Spanish. And they know at the courthouse that I'm the person to help the people to get married. I get them the judge, I make sure that the judge knows Spanish and the vows, because I sat with one of the judges about ten years ago. Sat down with that person every single day to rehearsal the vows in Spanish. So I had to go to the courthouse today to. . . the groom was non-Hispanic, and the bride, she's Hispanic, but she didn't know the English. So I had to do all of the interpretation for her, everything that for the license, the application, the judge, I had to witness it, I had to go through all of that with this family. So that what I mean is that today I 00:27:00still working and helping my people. And those teens that you think they don't need it? They do need it.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah.

GÓMEZ: Carmen, we wanted to. . . Some of your early years of activism, such as when you started to identify some of the needs in the community and started to respond, I know that there was a bit of a struggle for your husband to understand.

DE LA PAZ: Oh, yes.

GÓMEZ: The level. Could you talk a little about that?

M: Oh, sure. Even when I started to work at La Casa, my husband was not too happy. And I only worked at that time only two hours a day.

ARENAS: Oh, my.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah, I was [inaudible]. It was only three or four days a week. But only mornings. My husband was not too happy for me to start working. I came with an education, a degree from Puerto Rico. My English is still is not that great, 00:28:00anyway. But my English at that time was not that good. So I started as a teacher's aide and working with families, Hispanic families. That is how I became involved with the families. Because the children, I had to go home visit. And to the families and to tell them you know how important it was for the children to attend the pre-school. For them to be able to function at the same level for when they go to Kindergarten. To be able to function at the state level as other the children. So it took me a while to include the children for the school. At that time we only had 24 kids. If you ask me today how many children we have, we have over 200 kids. And we just going to open a Saturday school in September, which is a big, big. . . you know, things for La Casa de 00:29:00Esperanza. And I consider myself lucky to see that the agency to go through all the changes. So anyway, way back it was different. It was kind of. . . There was nothing for the Hispanics. Nothing. Just that La Casa was a very small house on the Ryan Street. Very small house. And we only had, La Casa had a secretary, Josephine, that she only worked, I think it was one day a week. And escuelita was only 24 childrens, was nothing for our families. No bilingual teachers, no bilingual program, no medical service in Spanish for our families, no Spanish mass at church, nothing. At the library, they didn't have no books in Spanish. I had to work with the librarian to establish a Spanish section in the library and 00:30:00I helped them to order books for the childrens and the selecciones, the [inaudible], the varidades, all that. I had to do it with the public library because there was nothing available for our families. I remember taking some families to the doctor, because they didn't know the language. I had one family that she was expecting and she didn't know the language. I had to be with her when she was having the baby, because she didn't know. I was sitting behind for the driver's ed, for the driver's education, I sat in the back of the car.

ARENAS: No!

DE LA PAZ: When I finished, I was so dizzy.

ARENAS: [laughter]

DE LA PAZ: I mean, the instructor was non-Spanish speaking, but the learner who 00:31:00the person that was learning was not English at all. So I had to sit in the back. "Okay, turn left. Toma una izquierda. Okay, stop sign. Okay, el auto." I had to do that. Because there was not anything in Spanish for them. Even in the election, when we had the elections, I had to sit with people to teach them and talk to them. I didn't tell them what to vote. But if we had a candidate that was inclined to help us, okay, of course I did. And I had to show the people, okay, this candidate is good for this and this and this. I remember the library, Waukesha Library, was un colegio to vote. And I used to take the people to vote. I would stand outside by the door with that person, and from the outside, I point to the voting space where they have to go to whatever. And I told them, I 00:32:00say, "You see that little cubicle over there that has like, a little curtain? That's where you go to vote. And there're going to have a pencil and they're going to give you a ballot that looks like this and this is how you're gonna do it." So from the outside I helped them. I was teaching them how to use the voting. And I was the one helped to translate the ballot from English to Spanish.

GÓMEZ: Carmen?

DE LA PAZ: Uh-huh?

GÓMEZ: In the community, and I have some personal recollections too, how word of mouth travels in the Latino community, and not just exclusively, throughout the Latino community, but when somebody is there to help out and word of mouth, "Oh," you know, "contact Carmen. She helped us with this and that."

DE LA PAZ: Yeah.

GÓMEZ: And then probably the word spread and you probably got more requests? Is that kind of how it went. . .

DE LA PAZ: Oh, yes.

GÓMEZ: People looked for you, sought you out and asked for your help, is that how you were doing all of those many great varieties of things?

DE LA PAZ: Yes. And then, let's go back to my husband. [Laughter] No, no, we're doing all that. I had to be out of the house. And remember, coming from Puerto Rico and from, I mean, another country, the woman doesn't do that. The woman stay at home. And him seeing me, how active I was in the community, he saw that as a threat for him. And he came one day and he told me, "You choose: the community or the family." At that time I was involved in so many boards in the 00:34:00community, and then I had to find a way how to bring him with me. He was always a good, good religious person. He was very Catholic, very Catholic. And we had to drive from Waukesha to Milwaukee because we don't have any Spanish mass in Milwaukee. So we went to Saint Francis, on 4th and Brown in Milwaukee on the north side. And through church, that's how I started with him, getting him involved. With being in the community for the church and then I was, he was. . . the Santo Nombre. He became a member of The Santo Nombre. I became a member of the ladies group. And since, that's how it started. That's how I start pulling 00:35:00him. Then after that he was in charge of the adult education, I was in charge of the Catholicismo, Catholicism for the children, the youth. After that we jumped to work with the marriage people. And then in Waukesha, I belonged to few committees and I joined and I pulled him. And I remember that at times Saint Joseph Church was in the process of opening the clinic, St Joseph's clinic. And they were forming, it was for the Hispanic family, people. And I convinced my husband for him to become a board member of the St Joseph's Clinic.

GÓMEZ: Ah.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. And I think he likes it. I think he saw how important and how needed was his help. That's how he got involved, and after that nobody stopped 00:36:00him. Nobody stopped him. I was a member of the Kiwanis Club and every time we had event to raise money or fundraising, he joined me. Every time we have any event here at the agency, Fiesta Waukesha, he worked with me hand-to-hand every single day. We were in charge of the marriage and counsel in Wisconsin, at state level, and we worked I don't know how many hundreds of couples came to our retreat. We were preparing couples to get married. Through that we went to Indiana, we went to Iowa, we went to Chicago, we went to Florida, we went to Texas, to start providing marriage counseling, encuentras matrimoniales. And then in those estates we organized couples, we trained couples for them to 00:37:00become leaders in their community through the church. And today I have people that come to me and said, "Don't you remember me?" with their kids already adults. "We went to your house to prepare for the marriage encounter" or "We went to your house to get prepared to get married. And look, we have so many kids and we are very happy." This part, Fiesta Waukesha, I'm telling you that it was a beautiful, beautiful, experience for me. I was sitting in the crowd, because I don't do too much in there, because my body is. . . I have [inaudible] all over but I still push myself. I was sitting with our ceremony director of the agency and with a few other people. I think was that guy that is the nephew of Pedro Enfante. And then he came to visit. We were sitting at the picnic table, listening to the music. And the Mexican guy came and he said during the 00:38:00ceremony, "This lady, we love her dearly. We owe so much to this lady. And we want you to know how much we love this lady." And he asked me to dance.

GÓMEZ: Aw.

DE LA PAZ: So I danced with him and then when he was dancing with me, I'm sorry that I feel like crying. And when he was dancing with me, he said, "Look at my face." And I felt kind of embarrassed looking at him. And he said, "No. Look at me, Señora Carmen." And I look at him and he said. "You might not remember me, but you helped my family and you helped me. You brought toys to our house during Christmas time. You brought clothes to our house, and you know what? I want to say thank you. Quiero decirte gracias, por todo lo que se hizo por nosotros." I felt so good. I honest to God. Doesn't care about how many years I've been 00:39:00involved with the community, that means so much to me, that after so many many years, maybe he was a child, he still remember me. That's a good person. And that's how I was to be remembered when I'm gone

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: That I helped. I helped. So anyway, my husband was my little bastón.

GÓMEZ: [Laughter]

DE LA PAZ: My bastón. Because that man was with me everywhere. Everywhere. After that, he was the secretary of the [inaudible] Chapter 425. He marched in all of the parades.

ARENAS: I remember that.

DE LA PAZ: Yes, yes. He marched in Milwaukee and Jefferson and everywhere with his uniform. He was very active in the community. He helped me with, because I 00:40:00was the first one to organize the Three Kings Celebration, because you know that in our country we don't have Santa Claus.

ARENAS: Right.

DE LA PAZ: Santa Claus doesn't come to our house, it just the Three Kings. Los Tres Reyes Magos.

GÓMEZ: Yep.

DE LA PAZ: So I was the first one to organize the Three Kings celebration. Because I don't want our children to forget where we coming from. And my husband was the one who helped me. I talked to one, two-- two big malls. I talked to Mayfair Mall and I talked to Brookfield Square Mall. And they had those Christmas Tree? And they'd call it, the Christmas Tree, where you put and hang the cards for people to ask?

GÓMEZ: Uh-huh.

DE LA PAZ: I collect thousands and thousands of toys for our families and those were saved for the Three Kings Celebration. We used the Carroll College, the gymnasium, because we don't have the accessibility. Carroll College allowed us 00:41:00to have the Three Kings Celebration and we have hundreds of families. Hundreds of families that came for the. . . well, you were here, Tess, Yes.

ARENAS: Yes, yes, I remember. It was beautiful. I saw it was bursting at the seams with guests.

DE LA PAZ: So I was the person to organize the first Three Kings Celebration. We walk and then downtown, I don't know you remember on Christmas time. . .

ARENAS: Yes.

DE LA PAZ: We'd sing the carols, carols to the stores in the Spanish. We went from store to store to store, and then every year they wait for us, they'd have hot chocolate, hot chocolate, that they'd cook, we'd have cookies; we'd have the carols, we sing Christmas carols, Spanish Christmas carols. We'd have the Posada, here at La Casa. We have the Champurrado, we'd have the Piñata, you know what? I know the whole things about the Posada, I'm from Puerto Rico, but I know how to sing the songs de Posada, because of my people. So, I can say yes, 00:42:00yes, I was there, yes I was one of the people that started organizing that, and my husband was along with me. Yeah. That's dead, I mean he's not dead, because God needed him sooner so he took him earlier, so. . . All I say is that he went ahead of me. Yeah. So, good man, good man.

ARENAS: Yeah.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: And my two kids were also involved with us.

GÓMEZ: Oh, yeah. Talk about that, Carmen. How were they. . . how did they become involved?

DE LA PAZ: Well, Mom and dad were involved since they were little. My daughter, she remember up to today that she used to go with the families to the doctor and she was the interpreter.

ARENAS: Mhm.

DE LA PAZ: She was one of the counselors that the camping that we had for the youth, the children, during the summer time. She was one of the counselors with 00:43:00the childrens in our community. They also help us serve meals at St. Francis, the church, and the meal program that we used to bring food from Waukesha all the way over there, and we'd feed the poor people. Our kids, they were very little and I'd put a stool by the sink, and they did the dishes and they served the people in need, and I said, "You don't only serve, you sit down and eat with them, and then after that you clean for them."

ARENAS: Wow.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. And they were also, my daughter was also more active than my son. Yeah. So they also were involved in the community. My daughter was the first youth at the YWCA board. She was a board member when she was 15 years old.

GÓMEZ: Oh!

DE LA PAZ: At the Y, yeah. So she was also very active.

ARENAS: Following in mother's footsteps. Following in your footsteps.

DE LA PAZ: Exactly, exactly. I mean, she's not in Waukesha, but where she is she is still working and still doing something and still working.

ARENAS: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah, yeah.

GÓMEZ: Carmen, let's move to talk about the tough times with trying to get the Waukesha public schools to address the needs of the Latino families who sent their kids to school. Could you talk about that and what your role was in changing education?

DE LA PAZ: Okay, okay, at that time way, way back they didn't see any need to have any bilingual programs.

ARENAS: When was this? When was this?

DE LA PAZ: Huh?

ARENAS: When was this? Is this 1960s? '70s? '80s?

DE LA PAZ: No, no. When I joined, it was in 1971. At that time, they had a very small bilingual program, but they didn't have any liaison, they didn't have any council because they didn't see any need for that. So our children were getting 00:45:00behind. Our parents were not active in the schools because of the language. So we have to fight. We have to fight for the need of our people and we had to organize. I think I mentioned to you, Tess, when we had the walk out. . .

ARENAS: Right.

DE LA PAZ: . . .for the schools. We organized our children, we organized our parents, because we didn't have any counselors. Bilingual counselors. We didn't have any liaisons. The transportation for our children was not as good as it should be. So the only way we were able to get what was needed was by fighting. I mean, when I say fighting it was not hitting and punching, but making our voices louder. Escuchar a nuestras necesidades. And we organized our parents and 00:46:00our childrens, and then we decided one day we were going to have a walk out. And then we said, "Okay, at 11 o'clock, we want all of the children to walk out of the classroom," and we were outside waiting for them. And it was very. . . How should I say it? It was very emotional to see our youth coming from different doors from the school.

ARENAS: Sure.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. And from there we marched to the superintendent's office, to Russell Ranke. I remember. And we walked, we walked into the building and we went to his office, and our youth. You are our youth; and that's why I say we have good leaders today. Because at that time, they show what they were able to 00:47:00do, they present all their needs to the superintendent. That was not enough. So we have to go, there was a meeting for the school board. We had to go into the school board meeting. They didn't allow us to go. So we had to open the doors and walk into the room. Was not a space in the agenda for us, that's what they said.

ARENAS: Wow.

DE LA PAZ: But still that way we let them know what we want from them and they called the police and the police had to take us out of the building.

ARENAS: Were you arrested? Were you arrested?

DE LA PAZ: No, no, no. Nobody got arrested, no, nobody, nobody, no.

ARENAS: And this was about what, 19. . . what time? What decade was the walk out?

DE LA PAZ: It was the early '70s.

ARENAS: Okay.

DE LA PAZ: Early '70s. And then I remember that, Mr. Carv? You see, I don't forget their names. Dr. Ranke was the superintendent and Dr. Ranke was the president, 00:48:00he was an Afro-American, was the superintendent of the school board, I mean, he was the president of the school board, and I remember that he worked at the social security office close to our house on Grant and then from La Casa from The Strand, because we were on Ryan Street. From Ryan we walked to his office. We have some cartas, you know, postals? We got the things, had a whole lot of things. The childrens and the parents and us, we walked and we marched in front of his office. And I remember there was Channel 4, Channel 6, was the freeman, I think was the journal, and Mr. Carl's office then we marched to the building to the superintendent building and then we marched over there, too. Yeah. It was big but you know what? Because of that, we got what the children needed. That 00:49:00was the only way. I mean, what I can say, Tess and Eloisa, is that what we have is not because it was given to us. We have what we have today because we have to fight, in a good way, because activism can be peaceful. There are different [kinds] of activism. Our activism was peaceful. We let our voice [be] heard and we marched; we were very peaceful. So we were able to to have what we have today.

ARENAS: Mhm.

DE LA PAZ: Yes, we were able to get a counselor, we were able to get a liaison, we were able to. . . I mean, it was good. The results were very, very productive. Yeah, we were very pleased. Yes.

GÓMEZ: Carmen, when you were involved in that change, were you wearing your La 00:50:00Casa Esperanza hat? Were you wearing several hats? What was your role at that time?

DE LA PAZ: Well, my role was a parent, as a citizen, as a friend, and as La Casa, member of La Casa. Yeah. But my biggest concern was the children. The children's education, and being a father, I mean, being a mother, a parent. So my biggest concern was the children, so my role was, like I said, a citizen, a father, a mother and a worker. I wear all of those different hats.

GÓMEZ: And then as a result of that like you were saying, Carmen, the schools provided a liaison?

DE LA PAZ: Yes, and a counselor, too.

GÓMEZ: A counselor?

DE LA PAZ: And a better transportation for our children.

GÓMEZ: Yeah. And this was better transportation, it sounded like it wasn't equal in terms of the service.

DE LA PAZ: No, no. It was not equal.

GÓMEZ: How did it improve?

DE LA PAZ: Okay, because, I mean, the children had to walk, let's say, a block and wait for the bus in the corner. The weather was not for that. And we demanded the bus stop in front of the childrens. Because other children, they were getting the service.

GÓMEZ: Ah.

DE LA PAZ: Other non-Hispanic childrens were getting that service. So we were not demanding. Or we were not asking for something that cannot be done, because it was already provided for other childrens.

GÓMEZ: Did they say why it was uneven that way? Why the non-Latino children. . .

DE LA PAZ: It was not needed. It was not needed. It was not needed. So that is 00:52:00why we have to raise our voices to let them know, "Yes, our children need that." And we were very successful. I mean, it was a struggle. We had to, you know. . . I mean, fight, but in a good way. But we had what we had. And then after that, as a result, we had the whole school. The White Rock was the whole school was a bilingual program.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: It was good. I mean, even at the high school they had bilingual teachers for the children that came new to the town.

ARENAS: Right.

DE LA PAZ: At that time, the children that didn't know the language, they were labeled. You didn't know the language. They were "mental retarded".

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. So how can you sit at home and see that the childrens were labeled without any. . . So that was not fair. That was not fair. So we had to 00:53:00prove that our children were as smart as the other children. The only difference that was the language.

GÓMEZ: So, it wasn't just the language, the barrier, it was how they were treated in the schools themselves and. . .

DE LA PAZ: Let's use. . . I'm going to use my own son, example. I'm not going to go too far, I'm not going to use anybody else's family; I'm going to use my son. My daughter, she's light skinned. She's more social and she's more outgoing. My son is darker skinned, his hair is kinky. When he went to Blair School... Oh my god. He went to kindergarten with the bilingual program, but then he was transferred to first grade in the regular classroom and that was hell for him. 00:54:00That was bad. Bad. Dakota was the principal. He was, my god, he was so mean. He was mean, mean, mean. My son came home crying everyday. He didn't want to go to school, he didn't want to go back to school, because the children, they pushed him, they spit at him, because of his color, and because he was different. He was seven years old and was already having internal problems with his stomach from all the pressure. And I remember that I went. . . I was already working as a teacher at La Casa, I went to the school and I talked to Mr. Kota and I explain to him the situation in the classroom, because my husband. . . my son being Hispanic, being from Puerto Rico. And he was born here, he was born in 00:55:00Waukesha, but he was different from the other children. He doesn't have blond hair, he doesn't have blue eyes, he doesn't have white skin. So I went and I talked to Mr. Kota and I offered myself to go into the classroom and work with all the childrens. My background being in education, I knew how to approach the children in a positive way. And I said, "You know what? I can bring Spanish books, I can bring different things from home. I can bring different desserts for the children to share." His answer was, "Well, he has to learn how to live with that."

GÓMEZ: Oh my goodness.

DE LA PAZ: That was his answer.

ARENAS: Oh God. . .

DE LA PAZ: After that one, my son came home without his spring jacket. It was spring. And he said, "Mom, my spring jacket is lost. I couldn't find it." I 00:56:00said, "It has to be somewhere in the school." So his spring jacket was found in the playground about two days, [inaudible]. They used it to clean a bloody nose.

GÓMEZ: Oh. . .

DE LA PAZ: Yes. And my children. . . he started school when he was four years old. He was very bright. Very. He finished. . . he was supposed to finish high school when he was 16, but he dropped out from the 10th grade, because of the same pressure from school. And when he was going to middle school, he was. . . the kids look at the other girls. And the other boys told him, "You cannot look at the white girls. You're not allowed to go out with white girls."

ARENAS: Oh geez.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. It was bad. So I don't have to go too far, because I lived that at my house. But I am a very strong person. And I used to go to the PTO meetings 00:57:00even I didn't know the language that good. I was the first one sitting in front of the PTO meetings. Even I didn't know the language that well, but I want them to know that I was there because I care for my kids. When they have festivals in the schools for fundraising, I was one of the volunteers. Sometimes I didn't even know what they were asking me, what they were telling me, what they were asking me to do, but I was there. And today my son, he's a mechanical engineer, a very good mechanical engineer, very successful. And my daughter, she went to [inaudible] University in New York for fine arts. She's doing very, very good. That means that all of my efforts, y todas las luches que tuve, paid off. Yeah.

GÓMEZ: That's very powerful, and it talks about the struggles that you and your 00:58:00family, not just you and your family, but so many families faced in that time, and how working together, you solved the problems in your community. Did you yourself experience any direct racism? Well, you talked a little bit about the prejudice with the neighbors in the apartment and the neighbors when you bought the house, were there any incidents that you wanted to share right now?

DE LA PAZ: I'm always been a very open person. I am not afraid to open my mouth and to say what I need to say. And I've always been very social. So if I can tell you, yes, that the only way that I felt really, really, really the prejudice was with my neighbors and with my son. With my son. But never, never, 00:59:00never, with my daughter, and never with me, directly. Not directly, no. Well, if they went through my son, yes, they went through me, but those are the only instances. You know, I am very liked, I'm very well liked here in Waukesha; I'm very well known, but because of that, because of my work with the community. Yeah, no, I've never felt. . . well, yes. Once. Let me tell you about this one. I don't even know if I told Tess. It was Christmas time, it was about 20 years ago, and you know that coming from a Spanish country I'm always going to have my accent. That will never, never go away. I said the only way I will lose it is if they cut my tongue.

ARENAS: Ay!

DE LA PAZ: Es la unica manera que yo perdio mi accento, que me corte la lengua. It was at Christmas time, I was at Brookfield Square. I was at Penny's, and I 01:00:00always liked the jewelry when I was with my husband. So the store was very crowded, and I was talking to the lady that was behind the counter, and I was talking with my broken English, maybe? I don't know. And suddenly, I felt like somebody pinch me.

ARENAS: Oh.

DE LA PAZ: It was bad. Pinch me in my arm. And I just saw that person passing. And I acted, como por emergencia, I just. . . went after that person. And I tell you, Tess, and I know you said that up to today, I feel her flesh in my hands, in my fingers. I pinch her so hard. She pinched me but I pinched her harder. My 01:01:00gosh. And then she turn around and she said, "Why are you pinching me?" And I said, "Because you pinched me first." And then she said, "Why don't you go and learn English."

ARENAS: Aw.

DE LA PAZ: And then she said, and my husband, he was not with me, but he said that when he heard my voice loud, he knew that I was in trouble.

ARENAS: [Laughter]

DE LA PAZ: He said, "Oh crap, oh crap, oh crap." And then he went. And you know what? The only thing, and I'm not lying to you, the only thing I saw. . . the front page of The Freeman saying, "Carmen De la Paz Got Into A Fight At The Mall," because I was so well known.

ARENAS: Oh no.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah.

ARENAS: I don't remember this one, Carmen. Tell me more.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah. That was the only time. But I got even to that person, and after today I feel her flesh in my fingers, because it was so hard that I 01:02:00twisted. Very, very hard. And then like I said, that she turned around and said, "Why are you pinching me?" and I said, "Because you pinched me first." And the clerk that I was with me, she nodded when she pinched me. Okay, she knew that. And then that's when she said, "Why don't you learn English?" and I said, "Lady, you know what? I consider myself lucky, because I can talk to you in English, and I can also talk en Español."

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: Le dije, "And I can also talk to you en Español."

ARENAS: Right.

DE LA PAZ: Then my husband grabbed me and he took me away.

ARENAS: [laughter]

DE LA PAZ: But honest to God, honest to God, the only thing I thought in my. . . "Oh my God," I said, "Oh my God, If I get into a fight, I will going to be on the front page of The Freeman." So that, yeah, that time I felt. . . I felt like it was. . . Yeah.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

ARENAS: Yeah, you were discriminated against based on what someone thought of 01:03:00your language. Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: Because of my accent, because of the way I talked.

ARENAS: Right, right.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah, yeah. So yes, that's the only time that I felt directly, directly, directly to me. Yeah.

ARENAS: Mhm.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah.

ARENAS: Okay.

DE LA PAZ: But other than that, no. I'm very social, I'm very social. Yeah, yeah.

GÓMEZ: Carmen? It kind of leads well into our next part of our questions, which is personal sacrifices. People like yourself who do tremendous service in the community experience, I mean, sacrifices for doing what they do. What were your sacrifices, what did you give up as a result of all your service in the community?

DE LA PAZ: I think I gained more than given. Yeah. The only thing is that I don't know if I neglected my family a little. You know, when my husband gave me, 01:04:00asked me to choose between the community and my family? But I don't think, because everything I did, I did it because I want to do it. And I did it with love, and I think I gained more than what I gave. No. Yeah, I cannot. The only thing is maybe, I don't know, maybe the time with my husband. Maybe. I don't know. Because I was doing what was needed to be done. I never felt that I was giving anything. Missing, I don't know, no creo, no creo. Creo que me gane mas que lo que yo pude dar.

GÓMEZ: Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. That's so beautiful. Thank you. And then, were there any other barriers in the community for Latinos there that you wanted to bring up? Anything that you. . .

DE LA PAZ: Housing.

GÓMEZ: Oh.

DE LA PAZ: Housing, yeah. Housing. Let me have, I want a drink of water. [takes a drink of water] Education and housing and jobs, okay, but more housing than education. Because jobs, our people work in anything. They're hard workers. But housing was not that good, and for renting, people were not renting to Hispanics. I remember that one apartment was made for renting. And one of our families called, and because maybe their accent, or maybe because they knew they were Hispanic, they didn't rent to them. They said it was rented. We asked one of our friends, that was English speaking to do the same thing, and he got rented. They rent it to him.

GÓMEZ: Ah.

DE LA PAZ: Yes. But then, I don't remember if we followed through, you know? I 01:06:00don't remember. Because that was prejudice. They didn't rent it to the family because they were Hispanic. So, lacking of housing was bad too, yeah. Yeah, that's the only thing I remember. Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: Okay, what kind of support did you receive, Carmen, as you were involved in the community? Who supported you and how did they support you?

DE LA PAZ: Well, La Casa. Remember that I was working at La Casa, but most of what I did was after work, or during the weekend, but La Casa always supported me. Always, always, always. My husband, after he realized how important was and how was needed was what I was doing, he was a big support for me. Yeah. If I 01:07:00needed [inaudibles] businesses. We had to educate people, okay? We had to show them, at that time, we had to show them that we were here, too. And they had to learn how to live with us, the same way that we had to learn to live with them. This was not our country. I consider Waukesha my hometown now.

GÓMEZ: Mhm.

DE LA PAZ: I live in Waukesha more than I lived in Puerto Rico. But housing was bad. Bad for the people. But my support, my work, La Casa as an agency, my husband, and the people. The people. Because people that they have needs, they became also. . . they also help.

GÓMEZ: You mentioned Maria Miguel?

DE LA PAZ: Maria San Miguel? Yes.

GÓMEZ: Could you tell us a little bit how she supported you?

DE LA PAZ: Oh, yes. She was my role model at that time. She was an activist, too. And I remember she was activist in Milwaukee and Waukesha. I don't know if you remember Father Groppi?

GÓMEZ: Ah, si.

DE LA PAZ: Father Groppi, she marched with Father Groppi all the time. She was a marcher with the Father Groppi. That's how I know Father Groppi. That's how I know the fight of Father Groppi, because of Maria San Miguel. And she took me under her wings and I remember used to go to her house for meetings. And she was always, always helping me, always helping me. Yeah.

GÓMEZ: How did she help, Carmen?

DE LA PAZ: Huh?

GÓMEZ: How did she help you?

DE LA PAZ: She helped me. She guide me. She guide me. I mean. . . [Laughter] You 01:09:00learned by seeing. And she was so good, I mean, she was not afraid, Eloisa. She was a go-getter. She was a go-getter. She was. . . I don't know if she is still alive, because she moved to Arizona or I don't know where. But she wasn't afraid. She wasn't. I think she was smaller than me. Tiny. And she was, my God, she was a fighter. She was not afraid.

GÓMEZ: What was one of the things you can remember about her as a fighter?

DE LA PAZ: She was not afraid to talk and when she went, well, she was one of the founders of Escuelita and La Casa. And she was with us when we have to go to have the walk out, so I worked very close to her. I was a follower at the time, 01:10:00you know, behind her. But very close to her, and I mean, and the bilingual program, she was very active with the bilingual program, with the housing, she was very active on that. He was very active with Father Groppi. I think I had a book of Father Groppi. And, I mean, she was my role model. I have lot of respect for Maria San Miguel and up to today, I look up to her.

GÓMEZ: Oh.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah. She was a blessing. She was a fighter. But she had a bad childhood, too. She went to school here, and that's what she was telling me when the time, she was old. She's older than me. That they had to go through hell when they went to school. It was bad, bad. The setting for the Hispanic kids, childrens here in the housing. It was bad. They lived by the train, by the railroad. That's where they lived. And how you call those, shanties or shanty 01:11:00housing? Bad housing. She said that they had to struggle, yeah. But she's a very smart lady; very, very smart lady. And so at that time we had a good, good group. Eileen Lopez was the first director of the agency, she was also a go-getter lady. She was much, much older than me. And those ladies, they had to fight. So I had to. . .

ARENAS: So did you actually work with Eileen, when she first started La Casa? Because I've never heard her. Tell me about that. Tell us about that and when that took place.

DE LA PAZ: Okay, let me have water. [drinks water] I think before I joined Escuelita? I met Eileen when La Casa was very small. She was the first director, and it happened to be a women. And she was volunteer, and it was in a few days, 01:12:00a few mornings in the week. And she was also a fighter, she was about it, I mean, she was not afraid to talk. I was afraid of her.

GÓMEZ: [laughter]

DE LA PAZ: Because, I mean, she was a go-getter. And I was in Waukesha for not even five years. And since then, how they had to push themselves and how they had to fight. So I had to learn with them, too. Thank God that I don't have to, I don't have a. . . I never in my life, thank God, nor when I was a child, when I grew up, when I came with my husband, I don't have any needs. But that didn't let me see the need of the people. So Eileen was also active in the community. Not as active as today as later on, because, I don't know, it was different. It was different. Yeah.

GÓMEZ: When we look at the women's leadership experiences such as yours, some women have a sort of a defined framework for their involvement, and you've defined your framework for this. I mean, you have talked about being responsive to community needs. Is there any other framework that defines your leadership work in the community, Carmen?

DE LA PAZ: What do you mean, Eloisa?

GÓMEZ: Well, you know, some women might call themselves feminist.

DE LA PAZ: I'm not a feminist.

GÓMEZ: Como?

DE LA PAZ: Yo creo que la mujer siempre hacido feminina.

GÓMEZ: Yeah, uh-huh.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah, that's my belief. And even when I wear pants when I as a child, I considered myself very feminine and I looked cute. I mean, none of the girls had pants. But I had pants. And you know what I did with my brother's jeans? I 01:14:00cut the legs. I opened the middle, the front and the back, and I made a skirt for me.

E&ARENAS: [laughter]

DE LA PAZ: Yeah. So, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know how to answer that question, Eloisa.

GÓMEZ: No, no, no. Estas bien. Because I feel that you've really been defining, I think, your leadership role all along, Carmen. You've been defining your leadership in terms of being responsive to the needs of the. . .

DE LA PAZ: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

GÓMEZ: And that's that is really what we were looking for. I just wanted to see if there was anything else, but you've really fully defined that, and I thank you so much. When we look at. . . What would you say of all of the efforts that you have done and there's so many more that are not covered in our conversation tonight, just because of lack of time, but there's so many wonderful things that 01:15:00you've done. What was the most important one of all of the efforts that you undertook, Carmen?

DE LA PAZ: Okay, for me, it was the fight with the school board, because of the result of that, that's why we have what we have today for our childrens. And it was not only an effort for that time, a need for that time. It just. . . what should I say. . . As a result of that, we have what we have today for our childrens. We came a time that we had a school fully bilingual, a principal bilingual, the counselor bilingual. We still have that. But if we, at that time, we kept our ourselves quiet, we won't have that today.

GÓMEZ: Yeah..

DE LA PAZ: We will not have that today.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: So that's why I say what we have was not given to us. What we have, 01:16:00we had to ask, we had to fight for that, in a good way. Yeah. So I think my biggest effort ever is the childrens' education. That's what I focus on, yeah.

ARENAS: I would like to follow up with just one final question if that's okay, Eloisa?

GÓMEZ: Yeah?

ARENAS: And that's the issue of your work within the Catholic Church. You know, I remember when you and your husband were offering the marital services, and I'm just wondering, when Eloisa talked about what kind of framework did you use in your organizing. And I don't want to put words in your mouth. . .

DE LA PAZ: Okay.

ARENAS: So just tell me how it was. But did your Catholic faith play a role in what you'd done in the community?

DE LA PAZ: Ay, ay, ay, ay. Shoot. The person that really care for people, even if you're religious or not, I think you will take action. But yes, my religion, you know that we the Hispanic, the Hispanic, there is a saying that is: "Mesa. Misa. Musa."

ARENAS: Right, right, right.

DE LA PAZ: Okay, so we defined as "Mesa misa musa." The Hispanic community, when we have people coming, we don't hide the food. We share what we have at the table. So that's the "mesa." "Misa" is that we go to church, and we share with the church. We active, and we hug and kiss, and we become brothers in Christ, 01:18:00you know as we say it. And the "musa" is the music. What Hispanic doesn't like to dance? Or doesn't like to listen to the Mariachis or listen to the El Gran Combo? Or una salsa or un merengue? So we define Misa, Musa, Mesa. I don't know, I don't know, but people who care for people, if they see something that is not right for the people, I think they, well. . . I cannot see a person seeing somebody else going through suffering or the lacking of whatever, food, and just turn their face to the other side, I cannot see that, I cannot see that. But yes, they're religious because the church helped me, and because my husband being such a religious person, and such a good Christian, that was our base. 01:19:00That was our base. Because through that we were able to help children, we were able to help newlywed couples, we were able to help couples that they were married 25 years, and they never were able to say, "I love you."

ARENAS: Oh, my.

DE LA PAZ: They never went out to dinner together. We sent them to eat at McDonald's, just by themselves, you know, example? So we worked in so many different ways with the community. In so many different ways, in so many different aspect. I love my community.

GÓMEZ: As we move away from the discussion around your faith, I had a question about your childhood with your father and mother active in the church.

DE LA PAZ: You know what? My father, it was funny, because my father was the one who went to church every Sunday.

GÓMEZ: Ah.

DE LA PAZ: My mother never, never went to church.

GÓMEZ: Oh.

DE LA PAZ: Never. But my father went to church every Sunday. I made my first communion, because our neighbor, Doña Suncha, who live in front of our house, there were six girls and one boy. It was the opposite of my house. So I spent a lot of time at their house, because of the girls and she was very spiritual. But she was the one who helped me to go through church, to make my first communion. And my house, my father, and. . . don't laugh, Okay? Don't laugh what I'm going to tell you, but my mom was more inclined to the. . . what should I said, let me see. . . Ay, ay, ay, ay. She was more. . . espriritista? Espriritismo?

GÓMEZ: Uh-huh.

DE LA PAZ: You know what is that, which?

GÓMEZ: Yeah, uh-huh. It's. . . I don't think it's the right translation, but spiritual, I think. . . She was more like, indigenous, kind of. . ?

DE LA PAZ: Yeah, espiritismo.

GÓMEZ: Yeah, more belief in the spirits?

DE LA PAZ: Yes. Yes. She was more into that.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: That my father, and my father was very, very Catholic, so at night my father used to play a joke on my mom.

ARENAS: Hah!

DE LA PAZ: He used to take the bedding that was white.

ARENAS: [laughter]

DE LA PAZ: He put it over him, something like a ghost? And he used to come out of the bathroom.

ARENAS: [laughter]

DE LA PAZ: Make fun of her. But that for us was fun. Because he was Catholic, so he didn't believe in that.

ARENAS: Right.

DE LA PAZ: So he was. . . Yeah. So the person, Catholic, was my father. He went to church every Sunday.

ARENAS: Okay.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah.

GÓMEZ: Good. Well, just as we wrap up, Carmen. . .

DE LA PAZ: I hope that what I said makes sense.

GÓMEZ: Yes. It does, absolutely. [talking over each other] This is an amazing set of experiences, Carmen. And you are such a gift to Waukesha and a gift to the planet. I mean, and one of the things that I admired about your work, is that even when you were angry, you smile.

DE LA PAZ: Oh yeah, I was. All the time.

ARENAS: You always find that, that up note, that upbeat.

DE LA PAZ: I was very happy.

ARENAS: Right. Even when things were intense, and I think that's part of your style that I've always admired.

DE LA PAZ: It is, it is, listen, I am a good dancer. I love to dance, and my husband, when we got married, we didn't dance. But the same way he joined me doing volunteering, he joined me dancing. My husband died June 16, 2003.

ARENAS: Oh.

DE LA PAZ: In July 15 of 2003, a month after, I had to go to a conference. NCLR? La Casa?

ARENAS: Mhm.

DE LA PAZ: They had a contest. They had some teachers teaching salsa, dancing salsa. Then was the contest to see who was the best dancer, salsa dancer.

ARENAS: Mhm.

DE LA PAZ: And they were teaching people. And then I was. . . I remember a young guy was standing by me, and this is a month after my husband died. And Tony Baez, you know who's Tony Baez?

ARENAS: Yes, yes, yes.

DE LA PAZ: He passed by me when I was watching the guys doing salsa, or teaching the salsa. And he stopped by me and he said, "Oh, I'm so sorry about your husband, Carmen. I'm sorry that Vicente's gone," or whatever, whatever, whatever. So he went, he kept walking. And then after they were teaching the 01:24:00people dancing, they had a contest and the prize was a nice, nice toy car for one of the dealer, beautiful car. And that was the prize. And they started playing the salsa and my feet started moving. And there was the guy, standing by me wearing the guayabera. And I asked him, a very young guy, and I asked him, "Do you dance?" He said, "Yeah."

[laughter]

DE LA PAZ: And then I ask, "Do you dance salsa?" And he says, "Yeah."

[laughter]

DE LA PAZ: And then I said, "Do you want to go?" And he says, "Yeah." So we jumped en la pista to dance. And then we were dancing like crazy and Tony Baez passed by.

GÓMEZ: [Laughter]

DE LA PAZ: And he look at me and I think he said, "Well, this lady, her husband died last month. . ."

[laughter]

DE LA PAZ: ". . .and you're dancing?" And I said to myself, "The heck, my husband know that I loved to dance, so he's happy for me." And I was the winner.

ARENAS: Woo! Oh my gosh!

DE LA PAZ: And I won the prize, and then I said, "Okay." And then I send my husband a kiss, and then I said, "Thank you, honey. I know that I love you, but I love to dance."

ARENAS: Oh, that's wonderful.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah. So I'm a very happy person, I am very positive. And I think that we are here for such a short time. I don't want to be spend my energy doing things that I don't like or in a negative way. You have to be productive, you have to enjoy life. Plus, if you complain, nobody listen to you, so why should you complain? So be happy. Enjoy life and let the other one. . . separarle a uno y se le se sale.

ARENAS: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: So I am a very happy person.

ARENAS: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: I love life. Life is a gift.

ARENAS: And we love you, Carmen, we love you so much.

DE LA PAZ: Thank you, thank you, thank you. And it's nice to talking to you, Eloisa. You might not remember me, but I think you are the Eloisa that I met.

GÓMEZ: Yeah, nope, Carmen, we've met, but hace mucho tiempo.

DE LA PAZ: Muchos años.

GÓMEZ: Yeah, but you know what? I guess I just want to share with you, every time that I've seen you, you've always look so professional, and. . .

DE LA PAZ: Thank you.

GÓMEZ: And I know, I've heard over the years of your good work. . .

DE LA PAZ: Thank you, sweetheart.

GÓMEZ: So I feel so proud to be able to be one of the people to. . . [inaudible] Carmen, are there any last words that you would like to share with those Latina women who are involved in community work now? Is there any parting words that you would like to share with them?

DE LA PAZ: Lo único que yo tengo, no solamente para la Mujer Latina, si no para la comunidad Latina en general.

GÓMEZ: Si, esta bien.

DE LA PAZ: Que no esta lucha nunca se termina.

GÓMEZ: Ah.

ARENAS: Right.

DE LA PAZ: Esta lucha continua porque mientras nosotros estemos en este planeta tierra. Y nuestros, nuestra familia, no esta siempre va a ver necesidad; siempre va a ver hambre, siempre va a ver necesidad de lo que sea, y si nosotros, si 01:27:00nosotros no tomamos acción, no hacemos que no estas voces sobre pasen las voces de esas personas que están en necesidad. We're gonna go nowhere. So, nuestro trabajo tiene que continuar, nuestro trabajo no se debe terminar. Yo quién sabe, si Dios me tiene uno o dos años, yo no se. I already have my funeral prepared. I already have. . . Ya lo tengo mi orquesta de salsa que va a tocar.

GÓMEZ: [laughter]

DE LA PAZ: . . .en mi funeral porque la muerte hay que celebrarla, según la vida la muerte es un hecho natural.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: . . .de la misma manera que nacemos, es de la misma manera que morirnos, pero el plan de nosotros vienen más. Así que nuestro lucha no debe terminar. Debemos seguir defendiendo los derechos de nuestra gente.

GÓMEZ: Yeah. So the work continues. The struggle continues. You know, our role is to continue to fight the good fight for people who. . .

DE LA PAZ: Exactly.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: Exactly. Hay que yo que no tiene voces por equis razón. Nosotros debemos hacer la voz de esas personas que están en necesidad. Se hay no, y yo soy en que la necesidad no es solamente de nosotros los hispanos.

GÓMEZ: Yeah.

DE LA PAZ: La necesidad es de todo ser humano.

ARENAS: Right.

DE LA PAZ: Hay necesidad en toda la raza pero porque yo soy hispana y veo un Afro Americano o un Chino, un Vietnamese con su necesidad yo creo que soy hispana me voy a privar de ayudar esa persona no estoy haciendo lo que tengo que hacer. No estoy cumpliendo mi misión. Haci que nuestro esfuerzo debe ser para todos en general, concentrando nos si en nuestra gente abarcando un poquito más allá.

ARENAS: Right.

GÓMEZ: And I think that that's such an important point, Carmen. That you know you were saying that the work that you do wasn't just for the Latino community.

DE LA PAZ: No.

GÓMEZ: It was for all the community who needed it.

DE LA PAZ: Yeah.

GÓMEZ: And I think that that's such an important message, I think, for the younger generations to hear.

DE LA PAZ: And you know what, Eloisa and Tess? I don't know what happened with our youth today. Pero el voluntarismo esta como que esta acabando.

ARENAS: Really?

DE LA PAZ: Yes. Yo no veo, no se si es, no se que lo está pasando. I don't know where we're lacking. No se donde estamos fallando. Que es de los jóvenes, hoy no, "Si no me pagan, yo no lo hago."

ARENAS: Mhm.

DE LA PAZ: "Y porque yo tengo que hacerlo?" Yo creo que tenemos que pensar a 01:30:00cambiar esa, la mentalidad. Ustedes como profesores, que están en la Universidades deben cambiar que enseñarle a los estudiantes que es bien importante ser voluntarios en nuestros comunidades.

ARENAS: Right.

DE LA PAZ: Es bien importante, es muy importante.

ARENAS: Right. Right.

DE LA PAZ: Pero, yo lo único de mi parte que debería hacer esto con ustedes, es mucho éxito. También gracias a ustedes por esfuerzo, porque también lo que ustedes. . . ustedes son activistas también.

ARENAS: Aw, thank you.

DE LA PAZ: Okay? Yeah.

ARENAS: Nothing like you, Carmen, nothing like you.

DE LA PAZ: Bueno que acuerdate que quizás haya mejores que yo, quizas no igual, okay, acuerdate que Dios solamente hace una fiesta de cada una. Pero este, I don't know? Yo se que tan igual como yo que hizo tanto como yo.

ARENAS: Yes.

DE LA PAZ: Tu eres una activista.

ARENAS: Ah, well, I try. I am following in your footsteps.

DE LA PAZ: I don't know about that but you're good. And what I remember about 01:31:00Eloisa is that is always, always seeing you involved, Eloisa.

ARENAS: And Eloisa was the one that got me involved. You know, when I went to La Guardia, I went to La Guardia and Eloisa showed up the first week to volunteer. And she says, "And I'll help you anyway that I can." And that's how I met her.

DE LA PAZ: Good. You see?

ARENAS: And now we're doing the research and writing the book and getting to meet. . . and not meet, but hear these fabulous stories that really need to be shared and will be shared, too. I just had another meeting with the Historical Society and now we're talking about an interactive website that will have clips from your interviews.

DE LA PAZ: Okay.

ARENAS: So it is going to be very exciting to share your stories, Carmen.

DE LA PAZ: I hope que Dios me da la licensia de ver su trabajo terminado. Yo espereme Dios. Porque mi amor ya me tengo 75 años.

ARENAS: Ah, I know, I know.

DE LA PAZ: Pienso que calle me pues, como yo le digo a la gente, ella me 01:32:00pregunta, "Cuando es su fecha de nacimiento?" And I go, "fiveseven.com." And they look at me and say, "What?" and I say, "Yeah. fiveseven.com." [laughter]

ARENAS: What?

DE LA PAZ: When somebody ask me to fill out paper and they ask me. . .

ARENAS: Yes, yeah?

DE LA PAZ: "Okay? When you were born?" I said, "fiveseven.com..."

ARENAS: Oh! [Laughter]

DE LA PAZ: And they look at me and they say, "What?" And I say, "fiveseven.com. "No, no, I'm joking. 5/7/41."

[Laughter]

[talking over each other]

DE LA PAZ: Y se recuerda ese mi niña que se cuida a su jovencita que le da que ese numero no le pesa, no. Okay, mis hijas? No que dios que le bendiga mi amor.

ARENAS: Aw.

DE LA PAZ: Cuidense y que le da bendiciones.

ARENAS: Okay, thank you, thank you, dear.

DE LA PAZ: Okay, mi amor.