Interview with Yolanda Garza, November 8, 2012, Madison, Wisconsin

[introduction credits]

HAWARD: Can you please tell us your name, date of birth and location of birth?

GARZA: Yolanda Garza, March 5th, 1955, South side of Chicago.

HAWARD: And your parents' birth places and birth dates?

GARZA: My mom was born in South Chicago, first generation, and my dad was born in Monterey, Mexico.

HAWARD: And are there any siblings that you would like to mention?

GARZA: Well, I have six, well, there were seven of us. So, I have two brothers and four sisters. Brothers are the oldest and the youngest, and the girls are 00:01:00in-between. All born on the South side of Chicago.

HAWARD: Is there any additional family that you would like to mention? Grandparents perhaps, or. . .?

GARZA: Sure. I would love to mention my grandmother, my maternal grandmother who I never had to opportunity of knowing. She was born in Huacana, Michoacán and came to the United States in early 1920s.

HAWARD: And this goes well with that question, how did your family end up in Chicago? Would you be willing to tell the story of how they chose the upper Midwest as a place to end up?

GARZA: Sure. Yeah, I find it to be pretty fascinating, on how they came to the 00:02:00United States. So, in terms of my great grandparents, my maternal great grandparents, they came from Huacana, Michoacán and my great grandfather actually was recruited by the United States Steel Industry, which was located on the South side of Chicago. And they were employing thousands and thousands of people, but my great grandfather was a skilled blacksmith. So he and his brother made their way over to the South side of Chicago and then went back and brought the family. So, my great grandmother and their children came via train to the South side and stayed there until they died.

HAWARD: And you said this was the 1920s?

GARZA: Yes.

HAWARD: Now, getting a little into your childhood, what was life growing up? Maybe school, did you sense any discrimination? What was the ethnic makeup of the area you came from?

GARZA: Okay. So, I was born in the '50s and born and raised in South Chicago. And I have fantastic memories of growing up. My family was very close, and because of the steel industry, it affected the lives of many Mexicaños especially, I think. It was really interesting because the demographics of South 00:04:00Chicago is, you know, there were Mexicans that came over from Mexico, and then you had Puerto Ricans, and across the train tracks there were African Americans. It was really, really quite interesting at the time. But, I went to Our Lady Guadalupe grammar school. At that time there were 99.9% Mexican American children that attended that school. My mother became very involved in the school. When we were there, she was in the mother's club, and then, since I graduated from there back in the '60s, my nieces and nephews have attended, and now I have grandnieces that are attending the same school that I did. Times were 00:05:00hard, they weren't always easy in the neighborhood. You know, again, because of the steel industry. I believe in the '50s there was a strike, but, you know? I never felt poor. My mother, it was amazing, because she always found a way to make us feel like we had food on our table. What she could do with tortillas and beans and rice was amazing. So we never really felt it, but yet, it was going on. And I just feel so blessed of coming and being raised in a very close knit family. And I had five generations of family members living in South Chicago. So, my family didn't leave, they were pillars of the community and I'm so proud 00:06:00of it. Now, when I graduated from elementary school, I attended a predominantly white high school. Now, the East side of Chicago, at the time was predominantly white. And there were bridges, and so I remember, for example when Martin Luther King died, they put up bridges so no Blacks could go across. My brother was in high school already, so I remember my mother was worried about him being able to get across back home because the bridges were going up and he wouldn't be able to get back to South Chicago. But as a freshman at that school, I had a hard time. I went to a predominantly white high school as I mentioned and it was a 00:07:00really difficult time, my first year. And it was difficult because I grew up in a household where everybody was welcome. My mother was the oldest of her generation, so people were coming to the house all the time. I felt like it was grand railroad station. People always coming in and my mother would drop whatever she was doing, and she'd go into the kitchen, you know, preparing food and so that's how I was raised. And then going to a predominantly white high school where I didn't feel so welcomed. And my first experience about feeling like I was being discriminated was, we had a group project that we had to do and the students in my group were white and they were talking about going to one of 00:08:00the student's homes after work, I mean, after class and everyone lived in the east side. I had to commute to go to the high school. So, I thought, well, it's going to be a little inconvenience, but we have this group work we have to do and one of the girls said, "Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think you can come to my house. You know, you're Mexican." Boy, did that blow me away, but I never let her know that. It really bothered me. And I said, "That's okay, I'm going back home, my mother knows how to cook, my mother is a good cook, so I don't need to go to your house and have your family cook for me or anything or even work on the project." That was my very first experience. And my dad had talked to me 00:09:00before I went to high school. He sat me down and he told me, "hija, don't ever forget who you are and where you came from." And I didn't quite understand what he was meaning. . .What he meant by that until that experience.

HAWARD: How old were you again?

GARZA: Well, let's see, I was a freshman in high school. So, my first year was a hard year. I just had a hard time. I didn't want to go to this school in the first place, I wanted to go where all my friends were going to, which was a public school. My dad worked two jobs to try to give us a good education because the public schools at the time, you didn't always hear about it, but there were already shootings going on in the public schools. So, I think my dad did it because he wanted us to be safe. What parent wouldn't? And so he took on two jobs to do that. So, I know I rebelled. I was unhappy. I was so unhappy. But I 00:10:00came to realize that it wasn't everybody. Not all white people were discriminating. And that's what I had to keep in mind. Because I met some other, during that course of the year, I met other high school friends and they didn't feel that way. So, after that, I became very comfortable at the school. I mean, I think there were like 5 Mexicans in the high school and my class was about 200 and something at the time. I will tell you one thing though, I was always raised never to cause any fights or anything like that. Okay, but I was also not going to let anybody push me around. So, the Dean of Students of the high school knew me, let's just put it that way. But, it's not because I caused any problems, but 00:11:00I was always defending myself. I felt like my dad, who worked in the blast furnace, which was a very dangerous job, was working really hard to send me to school. I deserved every right as any other student did, and I wasn't going to let them push me around. The only other thing I want to say about my high school years, because at the end, I really did, teachers, I didn't feel like they were discriminating against me, but it wasn't easy, as I mentioned. The only other time that it was hard for me later on when I was a senior, I remember the college recruiters coming to talk, and you needed a pass in order to get to talk to one of the recruiters because that meant you got out of class. I was never encouraged to talk to. . . and I wanted to talk to the recruiters and I could 00:12:00not. They wouldn't give me a pass and in fact, I was told I didn't have what it took to go to college. And of course, that pissed me off even further. So, it was April of my senior year, and I still didn't know anything about college. And I had to skip school, with my mothers' permission. She allowed me to miss a day of school and I went with a friend of mine, Flora Medina, from my neighborhood, and we went to Chicago State University to walk on campus. They had a trip arranged for some Latino high school students and I applied and I got into school. But, had it not been for that, I'm not saying I would not have tried to do it on my own. But what I am saying is that I was never encouraged to go to college.

HAWARD: Did you feel like there was a specific expectation of. . . like, path that you were supposed to take?

GARZA: Absolutely, they thought I might, you know--I mean, they thought that many of us were going to get married right away from high school because that's what was going on in my community. Unfortunately, and fortunately, I'm not here to judge, everybody makes choices. But, there was this expectation that we were going to get married right after high school and have tons of babies. Maybe we would work in technical jobs, maybe not, but you know, there was no expectation that I would go on or that any of my other friends would go on and be professionals.

HAWARD: Did you feel that you were supported from your family network?

GARZA: No. I am so grateful that my parents were so understanding about my aspirations. I'm the middle child. So, in some ways the pressure was not as 00:14:00significant for me. But, I was the first of my siblings to go on and get graduate work and my parents really made my life easier because I don't know what I would do. I had the bug in me, you know? I was like determined, I was going to get a college education. I did not want to get married right after high school. And I really wanted to get a college education and I don't know what I would have done if my parents gave me an ultimatum that I get married right after high school. Because that was happening to a lot of my friends. There were like, five or six of us from my neighborhood at that time to go and pursue a college education. Now, I couldn't even go away to college. Not because my parents didn't trust me, but because of financial reasons. There were other 00:15:00children in the family and it was hard. My dad was working two jobs to put us through school. So, I got that and I didn't care, I wanted to be an elementary school teacher. And do you know why I wanted to be an elementary school teacher? Because I was sick and tired of people saying that we were not smart enough. I heard it over and over and not only did I want to be a teacher, I wanted to be a math and science teacher. Why? Because I kept hearing that "oh, these Mexicans, they're not good in math and science" and I'm like--excuse me? So, I begged my college teachers when I was at Chicago state. I took more math classes than I 00:16:00ever needed to take. I loved science and I said if there was any way that I could impact some of these younger kids, that that's what I was going to do.

HAWARD: So, following college and when you graduated, what were some of the first places you worked or schools you taught at?

GARZA: Well, I felt very strongly that I was blessed in getting a college education. I wanted to give back to my community. So I stayed in South Chicago. I did my student teaching at the Sheridan School which is now named Oscar Millares, no Oscar--I apologize, I can't remember the name of the school, but I did my student teaching there. Loved it. Taught math and science while I was there. Went on to Our Lady Guadalupe, so here I go back to the school that I 00:17:00went to and again, I taught math and science and language arts. But, I taught fourth and fifth graders and seventh and eighth graders. I was asked to go up to the seventh and eighth grade because the kids were starting to bring weapons to school. And so I had been doing some volunteer work with the students. I was the cheerleading coach and the volleyball coach. And believe me, I didn't know anything about being a cheerleader. I was never a cheerleader and I never played volleyball. But the whole idea was that these kids needed an outlet, okay? We wanted them off the streets because it was rough growing up. Again, I'm going to go back to the steel industry because U.S. Steel still played such a significant 00:18:00role on the South side. It started to close and what did it mean? We were seeing divorces for the first time in South Chicago. We were seeing them mainly because the men were losing their jobs and that meant that the women had to go to work. Find work. And they were becoming the breadwinners for the first time, and it was hard for a lot of families. So, we started to see single moms supporting their kids. And so, I was one of the teachers who felt very strongly that we wanted to do as much as we could. So, the students asked me if I would be the cheerleading coach and I said sure. I did that, loved it. Loved coaching 00:19:00volleyball. Well, then what happened was, the teachers in the neighborhood, the teachers that taught at [inaudible] Sheridan, at Bowman, the Latinos, we all got together and we formed Our Lady Guadalupe Youth Center. Again, it was all volunteer work. Firefighters, police officers, we all volunteered, and it was during the summer. We had special programs, we had softball programs, my team wanted to be the Garza Angels, you know, around Charlie's angels, well, they wanted to be Garza's Angels. Again, I didn't know anything about softball, never played softball before, but it was so nice to see these kids have such a great time during the summer. There was boxing, I mean, we had all the sports, all year round. In the summer we had a banquet and at the end of the banquet we brought in a famous baseball player, Ernie Banks. I sat next to Ernie Banks. One 00:20:00year, the next year, we had Jose Cardenal. I have in my documents, I had an autograph of Jose Cardenal. Why did we do it? We wanted not only the kids to have a good time, but we wanted them to learn some skills at the same time. Learn social skills, learn some leadership, teamwork. That was the whole spirit of Our Lady Guadalupe Youth Center. The other thing that I feel really good about is I developed a partnership with one of the African American professors in Chicago State. Again, there weren't many Latinos and African American professors at the time, but he was my science professor. So, when my first-year 00:21:00teaching, I took my students to Chicago State University on a recruitment trip. Why? Well, first of all, the model that people were using is that you wait until junior or senior year in high school, but at that time, our kids weren't making it. They were dropping out at freshman year. They were not making it to their sophomore year. And I'm like, no. I want my students to know that they have options. And my students loved science and they loved math and I had a wonderful professor. He let them come on campus and they sat in the classroom. As a result of that, we had this exchange. He would give me all the materials that they had used and didn't need anymore. Because OLG did not have a good budget. So, I was 00:22:00teaching some of the concepts that they learn in college, to fourth, fifth, and seventh and eighth graders. And I am so happy that some of my students are all in the quantitative field now. I'm not saying that they should go in other fields, many of them did. You go where you're happy, but I didn't want them to be afraid or brainwashed that they couldn't do math and science. So, my whole. . . and I kept remembering my dad saying, "don't forget who you are, don't forget where you came from" and so after five years of working in the community, I knew it was time for me to go on and get a masters. I was the first and only Mexican assistant principal at Our Lady Guadalupe School and it hasn't changed. I mean, 00:23:00I was proud to be in that leadership role, but I am saddened to find out that there's not another Mexican assistant principal that had served that role. So, we still have a lot of work to do. And then I moved on to work on my masters and I went full-time. It was really an interesting time for me because the principal begged me not to leave and teachers and parents in the community did not want me to leave and the only reason why they agreed was, they thought I was going to come back and be the principal. So, I was honored by their trust. I mean, it was not an easy role, but I knew the community, I loved the community. My mom was a real activist. When I became a teacher there, my mother said, "Oh, this school is too small, we can't have two Garza women in the same school" and so then she 00:24:00said, "mija, you need to establish yourself there" and for that period of time she did not do the volunteer work at the school.

HAWARD: Where did you decide to do your Masters work?

GARZA: I went to Northern Illinois University in Dekalb, Illinois.

HAWARD: And how did things shift in your view once you started, you left Chicago and you're working on a higher education now, how did that start to shift or what were your objectives, I guess I should ask.

GARZA: Well, interesting enough, I went to NIU thinking it was going to be a bilingual reading specialist. My cousin was the only certified bilingual reading specialist, at that time, in the city of Chicago. And I'm like, wow. This is a big problem. And I love math and science, but you know, I thought, maybe I'll 00:25:00try this new reading area. I was highly recruited by the staff and the Center for Latino and Latin American Affairs here and I was fortunate to get a scholarship to attend NIU. I made the mistake of not interviewing the professors before I accepted. I did it afterwards, and I had already turned in my letter of resignation. And I say that because, when I went to campus to interview them, I was--I just didn't think it was going to be a good match. When you work in graduate studies, you have to really have a good relationship, working relationship, with your faculty. So, I remember going to the recruiter, the guy that recruited me to NIU and I said, "What am I going to do?" You know, I 00:26:00already turned down my job, you know, etc. He said, "Well, take some Adult ED classes," and I'm like, "Adult ED? I was elementary ED" so it was big shift. He goes, "No, no, no-" Well, that was a turning point for me. Because the faculty there were amazing. I got a really good sense that they really cared about you and I stayed there and got my degree. So, I got into adult continuing education, with some higher ed focus at the time. But, NIU was a turning point for me in another way and that was I had the opportunity to meet Vernon Lattin who was my direct supervisor. Vernon was the director of the Center for Latino and Latin American Affairs and I was his teaching assistant for the Chicano course. And 00:27:00then I was also asked to be the advisor to a group, they were just about to form, and it was for Latinas. It was called Flores: Females Leading in Order to Remain Equal in Society, something like that. Originally it was LIVING, and I said "LIVING? Hell we're living all the time, we're leading." So, anyway, we change the name. These were undergrad, mainly undergraduate Chicanas, Puerto Rican students and I remember the first summer, we went and we drove to Colorado to the "Adelante Mujer" conference. And how we found out about this conference 00:28:00is the Midwest Latino Council on Higher ED was housed in Northern Illinois under Vernon Lattin's leadership. So they brought in some fantastic women. I mean, they blew me away. I was a graduate student and I helped organize that conference. And I was so impressed, and I asked Vernon Lattin if we could get some funds to go and he gave us the money to go, took the women to that conference. And so I was very fortunate to have met these women.

HAWARD: Then when you finished at Northern Illinois, what was your next step professionally?

GARZA: So, I actually had heard of a job in Whitewater and I knew nothing about 00:29:00Whitewater, Wisconsin. Did not know a soul in the state of Wisconsin, except for Vernon Lattin. He actually, my first year in NIU, after my first year, he leaves and comes to Wisconsin. So he was, I believe, the highest rank Latino in the Wisconsin system, if I'm not mistaken, as the vice president for, I think academic affairs. And I remember, I want to say it was at least the first couple of weeks I was working at UW-Whitewater as the Director of Chicano Latino Student Programs and I get a phone call from a woman who I did not know, whose name was Tess Arenas. And she calls me to tell me that she heard from Vernon 00:30:00Lattin that I was now working at UW-Whitewater and she told me about WHCHE and I'm like WHCHE? What's WHCHE? But it was the Wisconsin Hispanic Council in Higher Ed. So, they had the Midwest Latino Council that was housed like I said in Dekalb, but they had all these other state organizations and so she invited me to attend meetings and get involved. Then I met Eloisa Gomez as well, and these were the two women that really welcomed me to the state of Wisconsin. And I immediately got involved with both of the organizations.

HAWARD: And how long were you at Whitewater?

GARZA: I was there just a short period of time. I was there for two years. I loved the campus, the President, the Chancellor, I should say, was fantastic. The students, they were wonderful, but I'm a city gal. I'm from Chicago. And I went to Whitewater which is like ten thousand plus people, which the university made most of, you know, and so it was a good place for me at that time of my life, but I was spending most of my weekends either in Madison, Milwaukee, or Chicago. I remember when my brothers moved me to Whitewater and they went back and they told my mother, "Oh my God, there's only one stop and go light" and I'm 00:32:00like, "No there's not, there's two!" So there was a little adjustment for me. So, my last six months of working at Whitewater, I was commuting to Madison and I decided that, you know, at some point I want to work on my doctorate and so I was trying to figure out where it would be. Would it be in Milwaukee or Madison? And I finally settled on Madison.

GOMEZ: So then let's go back to your work in Whitewater and with WHCHE, can we talk more about that?

GARZA: Sure. So, I was asked to be the Director of the Chicano Latino Student Programs and again, I was really excited about working with Chicanos in higher education. And my job responsibility was to recruit and retain the Chicano 00:33:00students, both at the undergrad and graduate level. So, I had the opportunity of having three Chicano graduate assistants who helped both in the recruitment of grad students and undergrad, and I remember after my first year we had a 46% increase in student population and the Chancellor was very pleased with that. But, I had told UW-Whitewater, "Listen, if I'm going to take this job, you need to let me go out in the communities, because you can't expect the students to come here, necessarily." So the traditional model of going to career fairs, they're okay, but that's not necessarily where the Latino students are going to and their families, so we need to either design our own Latino career fair, or you need me to be able to go out to the communities, to the community 00:34:00organizations in Milwaukee. I would go Racine and in the state. Because I really believe that the community members know their community better than anybody else. I felt very strongly about that, and I still feel strongly about that. The parents, the grandparents are so excited that their sons and daughters have the opportunity to go to college. So, for one Cinco de Mayo, the students on campus had MECHA, the MECHA organization at UW-Whitewater, they organized it, and I said, "Invite the elders, we're forgetting an important population! The elders are the ones that are going to tell their mijos and mijas to go on to college and they need to." So we brought them on campus. We brought them and they sold 00:35:00their goods. They did their arts and craft, but I felt like it was a missing link. Let's bring them on and oh my god, did we get numbers based on their grandparents! I mean, who would have, the administrators wouldn't have thought about doing it, so I said, "Let's get down to earth on this stuff and let's really go out with it." And that's where WHCHE came in too. WHCHE was an important organization, state-wide organization. Wisconsin Hispanic Council in Higher Ed. Because it was made up of people who were out there, doing the day-to-day work in terms of trying to recruit and retain not only students, but professional staff, faculty members at the university. And I feel this comes from my grassroots efforts in Chicago. You cannot depend on anybody to try to take care of your issues. You have to take ownership and step up to the plate 00:36:00and fight for your rights. And so that's what the Wisconsin Hispanic Council in Higher Ed was all about, I believe. That's what the Midwest Latino Council in Higher Ed was about. Now, having said that, I also believe that you need to keep institutions, in this case, higher ed institutions accountable. So let's partner with the institutions. And that's what WHCHE and The Midwest Latino Council in Higher Ed and all the other state institutions in the Midwest were doing. I recall that there was a man named Manuel Santos who helped me coordinate an event on campus, at Whitewater. It was hosted on Whitewater campus. And it was 00:37:00another recruitment strategy for undergrad and grad students. So I loved doing that work. And I told them, "You got to get to the elementary schools." I used the model from Chicago state, we have to start there. And WHCHE was, I think was a forefront. They were right in the forefront in terms of doing pre-college initiatives. I mean, we brought some of our elementary school kids doing this pre-collegiate programs. Why? You need to get them in the pipeline. You know, when you have the high dropouts in high school, you can't wait. So, WHCHE got on board with that, not just in Whitewater, but at the other institutions. And it was really nice to collaborate with the other colleagues and within the state. 00:38:00When you're like one of the few people working, Chicanas working on campus, it gets a little lonely. And, so it was a really nice support system and I met great people through these organizations and I'll never forget that.

GOMEZ: As a woman of color, what hurdles did you face in your employment positions? Which includes in Whitewater and Chicago.

GARZA: Well, you know, I'll tell you--when I was at UW-Whitewater, as I mentioned I loved the campus, but one of the things I came to find out was that I was being underpaid compared to my colleagues who had the same position, who had the same or less experience than I did, and that was one of the reasons I 00:39:00left Whitewater. I was never all about, "Oh, I need to make the most money", but I was about parity and equity and it's not okay for you not to compensate me for my skills and experience. And so, I had to make a hard decision, and I left. I did not leave in a bad way, I just knew that I needed to stand up for myself and boy, when I turned in my resignation, that's when people were like, trying to talk to me about money, because I had gone to them and asked for an increase in, of course, some money. But, then I decided, I'm not even going to tell them I'm going to resign until I know for sure I get the job in Madison. I submitted my letter of resignation and all of a sudden there was money and I'm like, too 00:40:00little, too late. Having said that, I had a great time while I was there. And the way I try to look at it is, what can I learn from each position I had? I came on to Madison. It was an assistant dean position and I thought it was an upward mobility opportunity and I worked there for 26 years in the same office. In the Dean of Students office. Hurdles? Yes, there were hurdles. One of the things that, I know I'm not alone when I say this, but I was raised that you work hard, you're loyal to the place where you work and you will have opportunities. Oh, and by the way, go get that education. That's what I was 00:41:00raised on, that's what was in Chicago. But, you know what, that's not true in higher education. It might have been a long time ago, but the reality is that you work in a certain place, for a certain amount of time and then you move. You move on. If you want to move up. And I wish someone would have sat down, sat me down and told me that. So, you know what, I would tell my students who were working on degrees, I would say, okay, or the new employees that would come, I said, "Do the best while you're here, enjoy it while you're here, but if you're planning to move up, stay here five years maybe, and move on. Because you're not going to move up." As much as I love Madison, UW-Madison. That's why I stayed here. Because I love my work. I didn't love all the other hurdles, but I loved 00:42:00my work, and I found out too late that that's how it worked in higher ed. And so, my role was really to help the younger folks, like yourself, who don't know this. So, I was blinded by that. I was an assistant dean the whole entire time I was here, working. There was a long time, the organization I worked in, the Dean of Students, at the time when it started, they only had one dean, one associate's dean, and about five assistant deans. So, there was not a lot of upward mobility opportunity. But, I loved my job. I wasn't necessarily looking at it. And the people who worked there, in the division, they didn't leave 00:43:00because they didn't like the job. They stayed. They stayed forever. So, my first opportunity to even apply for an associate dean position at UW was after working sixteen years there. I did not get any promotions while I was in Madison, and that was something that was troubling me. Because, I felt I was a really hard worker and I really tried my best, but there's something that's called institutional memory, and because I believed in it and because I was passionate about the issues I worked on, sometimes it meant that I had to do things and say things that folks were not ready to hear. Back in the mid-80s, it was a very 00:44:00hard time racially. Racial tensions were going, or I should say the late '80s, tensions were high at UW-Madison and other institutions of higher ed, and there were some tough realities. And what I learned as a woman of color, as a Chicana was that you had to be real careful what you told people. I don't want to generalize, but I think that sometimes, we are very emotional people. Because we love what we do and we are hard workers. And so, sometimes folks who are not from the same background may not understand that why you are so driven with your emotion. That they don't hear the emotion, I mean, they don't hear your issues, 00:45:00they only hear the emotion. So it's quick for them to say, "Oh, that Yolanda, she's angry" It's easy for them to say that. So, that's another lesson I learned when I was working. That I would tell my students, look, there's a lot of different ways to be effective. You don't have to be banging. . . That was never my style anyway. There were people that felt that you had to bang on doors in order to be heard. I think there are a lot of different styles. My style was to be able to confront someone directly. I grew up is, you have a problem, you have an issue, you go directly to that person and you tell them that and you try to work things out. But that's not the way it worked at the. . . with my colleagues. And I'm not talking the Dean's office, I'm just talking generally on 00:46:00campus. So I had to learn. I had to figure out what the balance was. But I will tell you, I would never, never let anybody push me out. I was going to leave when I was ready. And I was going to leave feeling good about me when I left. So, my last day at UW-Madison, I walked out with my head up high because I know that I gave and contributed as much as I could. Am I perfect? No. Nobody is perfect. Did I make mistakes? Sure, who doesn't? There were hard times. I felt that I should have had opportunities. I was at least twice overlooked for positions, yet I had extensive experience and I had my terminal degrees, I had 00:47:00already had my doctorate at this point, and so when you looked at the credentials, I mean, it was no question. And I had people tell me, "Yeah, you should have gotten it" and everything, but I didn't. And the only reason, the only way I got through was I had to remember why I was there, and that was that I was working for the students and I stayed focus on my work, and I loved my work. The minute I did not love my work, I knew I had to leave. I didn't leave because I didn't like my work, I left because it was time for me to go. I put in almost 29 years at UW-system, so two years at Whitewater, almost 26, I mean, 27 years at Madison.

GOMEZ: So, in your time in the UW system, who were your principal, your main supporters, your main adversaries?

GARZA: When I first started at UW-Madison, I helped organize a group. It was, at the time, called the Latino Academic Staff Association, and all of us were experiencing similar issues and so we became our own support system. I would say that was true. The second thing is that, I had to learn quickly, that you needed people from the outside, not just people that were working at the university. For your own sanity, you needed that. So, there were people like, I could call 00:49:00up Eloisa who worked in Milwaukee just to get together for dinner, whatever we needed to do. That was important. I became a little guarded who I shared information with because you just had to be careful. There weren't many Latino staff at the time, academic staff at the time when I first started. I think I was the first, not the first, but I think I was the. . . well, I was the only Latina in the division at the time and so it was really hard. People did not necessarily understand some of the culture differences that we faced, but that's why I had to rely on people from outside the university as well, and a couple of 00:50:00community of people to do that, just to sit down and share what's on your mind so that you would stay sane. Adversaries-- of course, there are going to be people that you encounter at the time. One of the challenges for me coming to Wisconsin, when I came, this goes back a little to Whitewater so I'm going to regress just for a few minutes here because I remember when I came to Whitewater and there were some issues from my own people, which I was surprised. There had been someone who had the position before me, and he was an intern, and he didn't 00:51:00get the job, I did. So here comes in a Chicana into the position. And man, I was given the test big time. And here I'm like, what the heck is going on? I'm down in Chicago politics, okay? But you know what was interesting for me about this? When we worked on issues, like, Puerto Ricans and Chicanos didn't always agree on each other, or the Blacks and the Mexicans, we didn't always agree on issues. But, what my experience was, when we had to fight for issues that impacted all, we kept our politics at the door and we moved forward. And what was interesting for me when I first came to Whitewater was I felt like I was being attacked and I had to prove myself. So, I remember calling my mom, who I felt was really 00:52:00wise, like, what the heck is going on here? I can't believe they're questioning. I feel like they're giving me the third degree here. And I said, I wonder, is it the cheese that they eat here? Or what is it? What's in the air? I could not understand it. And my mother just said, "Mija, you know, you have to go. You're starting all over, these people don't know you and you have to earn their trust. And so, you just go in there and you do what you know how to do, and you just work hard" Okay. I come to Madison, the same thing. Okay. And at that time, there were unfortunately, some of my own people. And you know what? Sometimes I think it's harder when it comes from your own, you know? Because then you could say, "Well, these other folks, they may not always understand things", but again, I had to remember my mother's words: You're starting all over; just 00:53:00because you worked Whitewater doesn't mean it's something these folks in Madison know. So, I think when I was, at the time I went, I was around in higher ed and everything, I realized that we were kind of breaking down some of the barriers that also would hopefully make it easier for those that are following our paths. So, I would have to say that there was a little bit of hurdles from a lot of different aspects and people.

GARZA: I was a firm believer though that if we were going to get things done here, that we needed to work together. We could not work in isolation. One of the hardest things as a woman was to have men hear some of the stuff we had to 00:54:00say. But I felt like, darn it, I work too hard, you know? It's not my issue, it's your issue. If you can't handle it coming from a woman, it's your personal problem. I need to move on. I need to do what I believe in and hopefully you are, your insecurities will, you'll put them aside and sit down to do some work and move forward. So, that's what I brought from Chicago. That's what I brought from how I remember working in Chicago was, hell, if we get stuck with inside fighting, we're never going to get anywhere. And guess what? A bunch of people are laughing and watching and listening to us struggle internally. And I'm not 00:55:00saying that I didn't gain anything from that internal stuff, it brought me growth. It made me see things that I did not experience when I was in Chicago. I think I became a better person as a result of it. With some pain, but you know, I got through it.

GOMEZ: So, the next question is about if you could talk a little bit about your research on the oppression on Latina administrators in higher education as well as your experience with that. And then if you could talk about if things have changed with time?

GARZA: Well, I will tell you that when I was working on my doctorate, I was doing that full-time and working full-time so, it was a challenge. And I was also on police and fire commission, I was doing a lot of work in the community here in Madison, so I had a lot on my plate. But, one thing that I remember my 00:56:00committee members telling me, especially my advisor saying, "You need to pick a topic that you really love, that you're going to enjoy, because you're going to breathe this 24/7, you're going to live it, you're going to sleep it, so pick something." And I wanted to pick something on women. I just felt like I wanted to do something. I was very eager to hear about what Latinas were experiencing, Latinas who worked in higher education. And I was particularly interested in it because I believed, very strongly, that folks never took the time to find out about our experiences. I really believed that we had some hardworking, very 00:57:00bright Latinas working in higher education, and nothing has been written about them. As I started doing my research, my belief was correct. There was very few things written about Latinos, period, in the higher ed work force. But when you start to look for Latina women, the women, there wasn't anything on us. So, it was my way of trying to give a forum for our women not to be silenced, that their voices not be silenced. So, I was interested in what were their experiences like, what was their promotional opportunity like, what was it like 00:58:00working in a higher ed environment? Were they getting supported? Had they been mentored? And you know what, I absolutely loved working with our women. They were so delighted that someone would take the time to sit down and find out about what it was like for them to work and about their contributions. It was so rewarding for me. I'm so glad that I picked that topic. So, basically, just to summarize, many of our women were in entry level positions. They were never really encouraged to pursue any management experiences. Some women didn't have some budgetary experiences that many of the next level, middle level folks would 00:59:00require. So, that was good because I could go back and share with them some of the things I learned. Promotional opportunities were basically non-existent. The women were all hardworking women. They loved their positions. It was not surprising that many of the women went into ethnic or racial specific positions. But they soon found out that it was okay for them to be in there up until a certain point if they wanted promotional opportunities. If they wanted to be a chancellor, or a vice chancellor, they soon learned that they would have to be a 01:00:00faculty member, or have some teaching experience in higher education, which many of them did not have. Most of the women that I interviewed had not been mentored. Some of the younger ones coming in were starting to, in part because some of us had been in higher ed and were taking on that leadership role to try to help mentor the newer ones. I think that for the older women, they were mentored mainly by white men. Some, one or two, might have had a man of color, but not many because at the time, the work force when it first started, there weren't many men of color working in higher education. The other interesting 01:01:00finding for me was that the Latinas that I interviewed felt that the white women were threatened by them. And so, white men were not, so it was easier at that time for them to feel comfortable to work with either white men or men of color. Do I think things have been changed? What I can say is that I believe that there is a small increase in more women of color entering the higher education work force. What I am seeing also is that women have come to realize that if you want 01:02:00to get a promotion that you need to leave the institution. That very few women of color or Latinas specifically will move up into a higher position at that same institution. And so, that's the change for some of the older women. It's a new trend, I think. Or, it's a trend that is being realized. I think for women of color, Latinas specifically, it's hard. Often times, people want us to break things down, in other words, does my race or ethnicity play a bigger part than 01:03:00being a female and it doesn't work that way. We have different layers, and I think we're hitting different issues, more issues. I think that the women that I interviewed have said that they really believed they had to work 3x harder than white women, white women, Black men, Latino men. That they had to work harder. And so, I can't say that I think that part has changed. Maybe it's not 3x harder, but it's still harder.

GOMEZ: So let's move to the question of the women's movement then. Could you 01:04:00talk about your opinion on the National Movement? Of Chicano or other women's movement?

GARZA: Okay, so I will tell you that I was not as involved in the women's movement when I was first starting out. In Chicago, I was not. And I just started to do it more when I was in Wisconsin. The problem I had with the women's movement is I really did not believe that the women's movement had women of color's issues and interests on their agenda on a daily basis, and that's what I had a hard time with. When you have us, and this is what I would say to 01:05:00my white counterparts, when we are a part of the daily agenda, then I can buy into it. Now, I'm not saying that I'm opposed to it, I'm just saying that that was my personal struggle with it. Of course, I work on women's issues, I mean, part of what I did in the Dean of Students office was to work on women's issues. I had an opportunity to work on a lot of issues and I did, but I think it was my last 12, 13 years, I said I want to work on women's issues and they're not easy issues. I mean, I had to work on the most difficult kinds of issues: sexual assault, dating and domestic violence, and stalking issues. So of course I want 01:06:00to be there. Anything to empower women, anything to help women and support women, I'm going to be there. But, I can't say that I was out there on the national level, working on national things, especially at the very beginning of my career. In part, I had already all this other stuff I was working in, but having said that, of course I wanted to see more Latinas in higher positions, in all kinds of positions. Yes, we need to be doing our things that our heart calls us to do. I love working with Latino students, Chicano students. I worked on the multicultural council. I did a lot of work because I loved working with our 01:07:00students, and I wanted to see them move on and be successful so they were role models, and I had to remind our students, "You're a role model", the fact that you're in college, you're a role model. You know, for your young ones. And I believed in changes in policy. I mean, I fought really hard to make some changes in employment issues on campus, just getting the institution to be more mindful when they're hiring. But, at the same time I'm not the type of person to just complain, if I have an issue, I also need to try to come up with some solutions or at least recommend some solutions. That's how I've always operated. I also 01:08:00learned early on that you have women, like in the women's movement, you have people playing different roles. That there are going to be women who are going to be behind the scenes doing things, and then you're going to have the women that are out there on the platform. So, you have women at all different levels depending on the comfort level. And I chose to work on issues that would support our students, our Latino students, and our students of color. At the same time I was working on some general issues. I remember when I was first hired in Madison, I'm going to go back for a minute. I told them when I accepted the job 01:09:00that I wanted not only to-- I wanted to work on all levels. Because I wanted white students to see confident people of color. I wanted for the other side, I wanted to be there for our students of color. To support them. So, that goes back to the fact that I was trying to promote that we need Latinos and Latinas in, to be doctors and nurses, and there's all kinds of opportunities out there. And the higher ed folks were only putting us in entry level positions, and that was not okay. It's almost like this concept, when we were going to have a multicultural center, it was the students of color on our campus. They were 01:10:00called the Minority Coalition, which Tess was involved in. It was amazing to see the energy that the students had and the organizational skills they had. But they were the ones that promoted change for our campus. The reason why we have the whole red gym building dedicated with the multicultural center is not because the administration thought about doing it, it's because the students of color fought for that. They demanded it. They demanded that ethnic studies be required. It was through their leadership, and I think, and I remember when we were first starting, I was asked, there was five of us, the Dean, the vice chancellor, small group, we had to survey the campus to try to find an interim place. And I told them, "Don't put us in the attic, and don't put us in the 01:11:00basement. You put us in a centrally located place." And that's what they did. They put us for an interim basis at the Memorial Inion. That's the whole idea, that I feel about, don't just put us in entry level positions, yes, they're important, but we have experienced skills to be at all levels.

GOMEZ: You talked about your work with domestic abuse on campus. Could you talk a little bit more?

GARZA: Okay, so, domestic and dating violence is a very sensitive and very difficult topic. It's not something that's easy for someone to even to come forward and talk about, but I felt very strongly that you needed to take a look at how we work with our victims and survivors. That we make it as a place that 01:12:00is safe and accessible for students to come forward. In fact, it was real quick to me that you can't do this work, again, by yourself or in isolation. So, I went out to the community and started to develop partnerships. I went to our local rape crisis center and started meeting with their staff and working. As a result, we were able to establish a rape crisis site on campus, so it would be easier for students to go to. And actually, it was open to faculty and staff and family members. So, that was one change that I worked with the community, some community organizations on. DAIS, which is Domestic Abuse Intervention Services, 01:13:00also had a close working relationship with child sexual abuse. So, the abuse happens sometimes at home, and sometimes there are students who never talk to anybody it, and for the first time they come to college, it might be the first time they may feel they're safe and they're talking about it and disclosing a lot of information about the abuse, which is difficult. And I believe that we need to make our students feel safe and do everything. If you're dealing with these hard issues it's real hard to be a student. And so, working with faculty members in understanding that, "Hey, a student might not be able to take that exam because they were violated," or whatever, and we work with faculty, of course, with the consent of our students. So, I never wanted us to take a 01:14:00reactive response, it was always trying to look at ways you can do things better to assist our victims and survivors.

GOMEZ: Okay. And now we'll move quickly to, pretty much, La Mujer Latina Conference, how did it get started? Who you worked with? And objectives and goals?

GARZA: So, it's really interesting because there was this small group of women who would get together and just talk. One time we were at a local restaurant, Paisan's, and it was a small group of us and we were talking about a lot of issues and some of us were experiencing some health issues, and we decided that we wanted to have a conference that dealt with health issues. So, Mujer Latina, first conference dealt only with health issues. And then it started to evolve. 01:15:00We started to expand it. And my intern, Susan Calderalo actually took up, took it on because I became very ill and the other person who was working on it, her sister Ashley, died during childbirth, so she had to take a leave, she was a law student. But, Susan Calderalo helped us and we kept doing it every year. So, they just had their 15th, 16th, I can't remember, but I was advisor. I was basically the founder of the organization and I just felt like we needed a forum for our students, faculty, and staff to get together and talk about our issues. I thought it was a wonderful opportunity for our students to learn important 01:16:00skills without them even realizing it. So, for me, what was so rewarding about this is I would see some students come from the very first time, very shy, not sure how to. . . You know, very timid, and oh my god, by the time the conference came around they were so assertive, the skill, the growth was amazing to me. Because these were students that had to go to vice chancellors and ask for money, so they learned how to talk to top administrators. They had to put the budget together, they had to go to [inaudible] sources, so they learned how to do some grant writing. I mean, those are important skills that they were learning as students and the most important thing is, they had to work together. So, they're the ones that really put the conference together. Yes, I was guiding 01:17:00them, but they were the ones who did all the hard stuff. They had to learn how to work with agents. I mean, we brought in some fantastic women at national level, regional level, and local. We had Lupe Valeres, we had Josefina, oh god, Peña, I think is her name, the one who is the author of "Real Women Have Curves". We brought in some fantastic women to the conference. The other part is networking. It's also so important for them to see role models, to see women, to see our women and how successful they are. We invited community people. We, at 01:18:00one time, they would not let us bring community people and I said, "No, that is unheard of, you have to invite it." It's because of state policies, they were about the money that they were giving to bring it in. Got the university to become more understanding and waive that, so community members are invited, high school kids be invited, faculty, staff, and our students, and it's a fantastic opportunity. Now, of course I'm a little biased because I've been involved in it, but I think it's one thing that most of the students that were involved in it really feel proud about the work they did. Now, it's not easy work, it's hard work and sometimes it means that they don't always agree, but that's something they have to learn is compromise, and teamwork.

GOMEZ: What projects do you feel the most proud of? That you feel was the biggest impact to the community?

GARZA: Well, of course, I just said Mujer Latina was so, I mean, it's so really close to my heart because I don't know. I just think our women are dynamite and they're strong, intelligent women and their voices and their contributions are many and they need to be recognized for that. So, on that level, I'm very proud and I'm also very proud that I believe that when someone's starting out, if they're willing, we should help them out. The older people should help the 01:20:00younger people coming through the system and I think I helped a little in that way. And I loved my work. I feel that there have been women that actually chose not to take their lives because I was able to help them open a few doors or I would take them through the criminal process. We talk about women's issues, we talk about these hard issues, that they're tough, but I think they are even harder for women of color because it's not something that you would typically talk about. And it's such a small community, the students of color community is even smaller, so it's not something you're grown up open talking about to someone.

ARENAS: I think one of the things that I would really like to hear from you about is your role in the police and fire commission of Madison. This is a role 01:21:00you played, you know, it was a very important appointment for the Latino community to have representation on this committee and I'd like you to zero on the hiring of Debra Amesqua as the first Chicana Native American female fire chief of the nation and the subsequent fallout with the mayor. You played such a pivotal role in both.

GARZA: Yeah, when I think about that, I could tell you that it was a very difficult time because there was so much adversary going around. You see, with the police and fire commission, one of our roles was to hire a new fire chief, and so 01:22:00typically departments would hire within and it was determined that we should. . . We determined, the fire commission that we should try to go outside and do a national search because this was such a significant position in the city of Madison, and we chose that. We had a very competitive process, very comprehensive process. Debra Amesqua applied for the position and she was phenomenal. However, there was a small group of mainly white men who did not want to see her get the position. They had someone else in mind. We went out to communities, we went to the communities with the candidates finalized and we interviewed people from their perspective's community and she was hired. And we 01:23:00all felt very strongly that she was the best person for the job. And of course, she was under fire, people were watching her like a hawk. I was confident that if people only gave her a chance, that she would prove herself to be. And I was right. She did a fantastic job while she was here. And some of her opponents actually worked with her and it took a year or two for them to come around, some people in the unions came around. I was so proud that she could represent us all and the criticism people were giving was that we hired her because she was a 01:24:00Chicana Native American. People don't understand. I didn't think that they really understood that Chicanas, Native Americans, Blacks, we have some tremendous experience and we have contributed, and we deserve positions of leadership and she was on the top. And I think she had contributed to Madison in a very wonderful way and of course, I was saddened that she just retired. And for that, she attended my retirement party, but I mean, she's off back home in Florida. But, yeah, she was given a hard time.

ARENAS: In particular, though, I recall a time when, at that time, Mayor Sue Bauman almost declared war on Fire Chief Amesqua, and that as a fire 01:25:00commissioner, you played a strong role in defending Deb. Ehy did you do that?

GARZA: Well, first of all, I was very annoyed at the Mayor. Because I felt like she was not treating her respectfully.

ARENAS: In what way?

GARZA: She was giving her a very difficult time. She was opposing a lot of the changes. Amesqua wanted to implement some changes. And what I was very frustrated with, and that's a nice word. . .

ARENAS: I was just going to say, that's a nice word

GARZA: . . . yes, I was really frustrated with her because she was doing it in a very public way. She was very demeaning in a very public way. It was on TV, it 01:26:00was in the newspapers, it was in front of people, and to me that was a sign that you're not a good administrator if you are doing that to one of your staff, your cabinet folks. And I confronted her. I confronted the Mayor in front of a group of Latinos, it was a gathering. I was livid. How dare she do that?

ARENAS: You used those words?

GARZA: Oh, absolutely. And every time the Mayor saw me, she just put her head down. She knew it, because you know what, I just think that she wasn't helping the issue. That she should of, if anything, guided Debra Amesqua. See, she had a background in the labor union, and she was trying to save her ass and at Debra 01:27:00Amesqua's expense. And I'm like, no way, hell no. The commissioners, we took our job responsibilities very seriously and we believed that she was the top person for the candidate, and she needed at least to be given an opportunity to prove herself and she wasn't allowing it. So, I confronted her, respectfully, but I was not going to have it and I think she backed off after a while as a result of that. Because she knew there were other Latino leaders there in the community. I know I caught her off guard and so what?

ARENAS: Right. Right.

GARZA: But she was, and it's interesting as fire chief, but she was just adding more fuel to the fire by having it on TV and having it in the news and 01:28:00everything like that. When a good administrator would take that person privately and try to work things out.

ARENAS: It's interesting she never ran for office after her term, but Debra Amesqua did stay on.

GARZA: She stayed on. And, again, those few people, men, who were so opposed to her, worked with her and said wonderful things about her, you know? So, I'm just like, this is a perfect example that our people show what we can do. And she was one of our leaders, we were so proud of her and here she was trying to, and I'm like, not without a fight, girlfriend.

ARENAS: Right.