Interview with Alan W. Walker, June 23, 2015, Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Imonee White: My name is Imonee White. This interview is being conducted by me on Allan Walker.

Allan Walker: All-Ahn .

Imonee White: Allan Walker on June 23rd at 10:36 a.m. Hi Mr. Walker, how are you?

Allan Walker: Super.

Imonee White: Great. I have a few questions for you today. My first question will be, how long have you been in Milwaukee?

Allan Walker: I came to Milwaukee in 1953.

Imonee White: 1953.

Allan Walker: I came from the Chicago area.

Imonee White: Have you always been, excuse me, I was told that you were involved in church management. Is this something new or were you a churchgoer throughout your childhood?

Allan Walker: I always -- no, not all the way through, but my parents -- my father -- my mother always went to church and she always took the kids back and forth like that if possible like that when I was younger and then I'm like that so, you know, and I went too as a teenager I used to go, I went to this, I was a Lutheran, Presbyterian church where I used to stay at on 17th Street between 00:01:00Water and Evan for a while. You know, I got, you know, so I was there back and forth. So, I always kind of believed in church but I wasn't there all the time at different ones; you know, so as I grew, so, you know.

Imonee White: Is this church management thing new to you or have you been doing this for a while?

Allan Walker: No, I actually got involved where I'm at my church now in '90, no, was that, let's see here was in 2009 I've been where I'm at now Baptist Church, where I'm a Trustee, Altar Guild Ministry, I'm in Abundant Life Singing Ministry and a choir ministry, monthly choir ministry and the other different things I do around there, so I just really gotten involved. That's the most involved I've ever been in a church than the one I belong to now, you know.

Imonee White: Do you have any children, if so, how many?

Allan Walker: Oh yeah, from my previous wife when she died it was six kids we had, and I lost a couple of daughters and another one I raised as my child also 00:02:00so, so it's just now about, I guess it'd be four girls and two boys.

Imonee White: While working at A.O. Smith did you enjoy your time there?

Allan Walker: Oh yes, yes, when I was there I like it. I was there since high school. Since I graduated from high school, I started in 1962. So, that's when I started working at A.O. Smith. Yeah. And then in '65 I got drafted into the Army. I got drafted, so I was in the service from '65 to '67 and I came back, my job was waiting for me, so --

Imonee White: How did you feel about being drafted, were you afraid?

Allan Walker: Well, I didn't want to be. I tried to get out, because I didn't want, you know, I just didn't want to be drafted, because before that I wanted to go and my father was a Marine, I wanted to go in, but I didn't qualify at that particular time. I guess I was glad, but I didn't want to stay in because, you know, just it's different between, you know, you in a place you can't do nothing, you got to go follow orders all the way through just like there and 00:03:00you're not used to doing nothing like that, so it was a challenge for a while. But I'm glad I did, you know, at the end of it I'm glad I did stay because I learned a lot, you know, so it was a good education for me in the service, you know. And I was blessed that I had to go be by the United States, you know, so that was a good thing too, you know, so.

Imonee White: If you had the chance, would you go back again?

Allan Walker: No, no, I did, that was it. I did my time, that was it.

Imonee White: How old were you when you signed up and joined the A.O. Smith Company?

Allan Walker: I was -- I graduated in -- I was eighteen.

Imonee White: Eighteen years old?

Allan Walker: Right.

Imonee White: So did you go to college?

Allan Walker: MIT, Milwaukee Institute of Technology, now MATC, I was there for a while back and forth for accounting and computer, RPG, like that, something like that, you know, so .

Imonee White: How long were you working for A.O. Smith?

Allan Walker: Thirty-eight years.

Imonee White: Thirty-eight years.

Imonee White: How did the plant closing bother you, like, was it just financial 00:04:00or was it emotional, physical?

Allan Walker: It wasn't financial because I had already retired, so I had put my time in and kind of did what I want to do, you know, as far as accomplished, like that, but it bothered me because the neighborhood went deteriorated, going down the people there. The money wasn't there like it was always there, you know, people could have jobs, and so far like that, you know and can take care of them houses, to buy the vehicles and establishments around there was thriving good because of employees, so that kind of deteriorated down a little bit too, you know.

Plus, when the plant closed too, it wasn't maintained like it was when it was active, you know. How it was looking hot outside, wasn't real maintained and so far like that, so, and the parking lots and so forth like that, you know, so. It was a big change that was kind of sad to see, you know, the houses like that, and so. Like then people just no jobs that was there, because they employed a whole lot before, you know, so when them plants starts closing it was kind of 00:05:00terrible, you know, so.

Imonee White: Are you still in communication with your previous co-workers with A.O. Smith?

Allan Walker: Oh yeah, I belong to this -- I'm one of the reporter directors on the alumni of A.O. Smith. In fact, we got an event coming up in August, people who used work at A.O. Smith, they come to events we have, like that dinner, like we have one coming up in August, so --

Imonee White: Yeah.

Allan Walker: So we put some together and get all the previous employees and the management people, let them know about it, if they want to come they show up, you know. So that's been pretty good, well, successful ride, you know, so we're not going to dwell on that one.

Imonee White: So you had told me that you had already retired, how did the plant closing affect your family?

Allan Walker: Well actually, it didn't affect my family, because I was the only one who worked there and I in '89 I kind of moved away from where I was staying 00:06:00on 26th between Chamber and Berline and my baby daughter kind of moved with us, because she was the youngest at that time, so, it didn't affect them because you know, I already kind of maintained my household, took care it and, you know, had established myself, you know, make that, so it didn't affect me personally, as far as financial. But --

Imonee White: If you had a teenage son, eighteen around the time and it was something like A.O. Smith at the time now that he could participate in, would you want him to go down the same path and do the same things you did or would you want him to go to college and try to get an education?

Allan Walker: Well, first, I would offer him to go to college, you know, through that, forget that, maintain that first, you know. If he couldn't or something that, then, you know, look for something to keep busy, do something, learn, start off that way, you know. But, otherwise, I always school, school is more important, you got to learn something, you know, so --

Imonee White: You have six children, do you have any grandkids?

Allan Walker: I got great-great grandkids right.

Imonee White: You said your wife passed away, right?

Allan Walker: Yeah, in '76, right. My baby was a year and a half when she passed and so I took care of my kids by myself until I remarried in '96. Then, I don't have no children by my first wife no, so she had one for her first marriage.

Imonee White: So, if you were a single parent, how was that, to do it?

Allan Walker: It was rough, because I was working, especially when I was working third shift, you know, I was away from the house.

Imonee White: Right.

Allan Walker: You know you got four girls, you know, like that too, and hair, like that, too . And I was strict. I was mostly the mother and the father, but mostly I was father and I was kind of strict, you know. And I had up a sign with the boys in the neighborhood they thought I was a mean dad, but I had to be that way because the way they was like that, so, it was kind of challenging. You know like that, but I never had no real problem with my kids as far as trouble or jail, or nothing like that, you know, just that a couple of them got 00:08:00a little pregnant in between that I didn't like, but otherwise. It was challenging being that one parent you know.

Imonee White: Right.

Allan Walker: Because I had to maintain, make sure they were going to the right schools. I did that, you know. Like, my kids was -- they went to St. Agnes, two of my children and then another, the baby went to another school, and then they went to Howard Avenue. And then I got my daughter later on, to Kean, because I know the principal there because the principal was a teacher at North Division and my brother was a valedictorian there. So they already knew my brother valedictorian over there, you know.

Imonee White: Yeah.

Allan Walker: So like that, they told me to mention his name, excuse me. So he got my daughter in there, which a lot of people didn't understand how she could get in there, because there was a lot of waiting list, so. You know, I always kind of pushed them forward and the rest of them went to North. Two of them went to North where I went to.

Imonee White: Yeah.

Allan Walker: So they got to the schools where I wanted them to go to, you know. Like that I didn't have no problem about that issue, you know.

Imonee White: Okay. Well, with the passing of your wife, how did you and your daughters and the rest of the kids deal with it?

Allan Walker: What because they suffered because this, you know, losing a mother or something else where they were young too, and still then it's me, because the oldest girl, like, my wife had three kids when I married her, you know, three kids of my daughter. Those one was 16, so like that, so they all stayed with me. The judge gave them all, you know, to the house, like that so, took care, all in my care, so it wasn't no problem. So, yeah, it's rough like that, you know, you always miss your mother, you know, so, so that kind of -- but I was mostly the man, kind of stuff like that, you know, like that. I wasn't like a mother. You know how a mother is.

Imonee White: Right.

Allan Walker: The kids are like a different thing like that too, I've had it different, you know, so, I worked, so it was challenging. But they got a -- they knew me later on so they got along and they kind of talk about it now how I took care of myself and like that, instead of walking away.

Imonee White: Right.

Allan Walker: You know, so. I kind of stayed with them until they got of age, you know, like that, so. So that was a blessing because I think that's why God took care of me now, you know. Excuse me. Because what I did, you know, so --

Imonee White: So you're not from Milwaukee?

Allan Walker: I was born in Chicago.

Imonee White: Okay.

Allan Walker: I came to Milwaukee around Nine.

Imonee White: Nine years old?

Allan Walker: Um-hmm.

Imonee White: Would you prefer to be back in Chicago ?

Allan Walker: No, no, because Milwaukee been my home since then, you know so I was just raised, I was just born into I was nine, so that was it, so, you know, so --

Imonee White: What part of Chicago were you in?

Allan Walker: South side.

Imonee White: Oh, Lord.

Allan Walker: Yeah. So, I had no problem when I was there at nine and I used to go back for partying back and forth, you know, and like that so, but otherwise as far as staying and all, because like if everything was here I'd stay, you know, so no reason for me to go back there to visit, most of my relatives gone now anyway now, so --

Imonee White: So did you graduate High School?

Allan Walker: Yeah, North Division.

Imonee White: North Division. Did you like it?

Allan Walker: Yeah. Oh, yeah, the track team, cross country different things like that. It was real good, no problem at all. Most of my oldest brothers and my see I'm the third oldest of the family, so we all went there, and two of my kids so, you know so --

Imonee White: So how many brothers and sisters do you have? How many siblings?

Allan Walker: It was ten total.

Imonee White: Ten?

Allan Walker: Yeah, I lost a sister in '72 and the rest, you know, so it was six boys and four girls.

Imonee White: Wow.

Allan Walker: So there now are six boys and three girls.

Imonee White: Big family. Did you have both parents?

Allan Walker: Yes.

Imonee White; Are your parents still alive today?

Allan Walker: No, no, no, my dad had passed away in '96, right after I got married, and my mother passed away in 2004.

Imonee White: At the time right now in Milwaukee still the place to be for you, would you stay?

Allan Walker: Well, I don't know nowhere else and I have no problem being here. So I know nowhere for me to run nowhere else, because what you running from, some people run different places.

Imonee White: Right.

Allan Walker: And they run into some things they wouldn't used to and the weather be challenging, and so, it's no, I'm used to everything here. So there's nowhere me to escape to go nowhere else because I established is everything here and I'm satisfied with it, you know, so. I wouldn't want to live nowhere else right now, you know, so --

Imonee White: Are you familiar with us, the Wisconsin Black Historical Society?

Allan Walker: Yeah, I've been here, last time I had a group here from the church, we had a session and we came in and start to decided we came and visit here and we had a good presentation and we was there for a while, you know, it's like that, sure. You hear about it all the time, you know, so, like that, so, oh yeah.

Imonee White: Okay. Since you are management of the church, how often are you there, how many days a week?

Allan Walker: Well, it depends on when I feel like it. I just go through there. Like I say, I may make it three of four days a week I might go there, all depends. You know, but right now I'm working on a project, so it kind of held me back a little bit.

Imonee White: Yeah.

Allan Walker: From going there, but I still be there, like on Sunday, you know, both services.

Imonee White: Right.

Allan Walker: Because I'm a trustee, so we kind of maintain the service and kind of security and stuff like that too, so I'm there any time when they call, or any kind of a session going on during the week, three or four days, if they have something during the week, like the end of the month they having some ministry services, and so I'll be there, you know, for four days during the week. Plus, on Sunday, any other time they call us in to do some things, you know, so. I'm pretty regular.

Imonee White: Do your children know everything that you've experienced that 00:13:00you've done throughout your life?

Allan Walker: Do they know everything? Well, some things I won't let them know , but they know I always worked, that the one thing. They know I always worked to get what I got.

Imonee White: Yes.

Allan Walker: It wasn't nothing that, you know, they saw I got thing by working and I encouraged them to work and save. So they kind of know how I am, and what I got from saving. You know for all the vehicles I bought while I was at work and I got things and just to where I, you know, all things. They know it was always from a job. You know, nobody gave me nothing, I did nothing wrong, I worked, you know, so. So God took care of me, kept me busy and that was it, because I took care of my kids, so, I always been blessed.

Imonee White: Okay. Well, me, I'm only seventeen years old. If there was any ticket of advice you would give me for the long run in life, what would it be?

Allan Walker: Well, keep -- stay with the education, like that, you know, and attend church, because you're going to get your badges and stuff like that too.

Imonee White: Right.

Allan Walker: But, you know, maintain your education because that's very 00:14:00important. That's going to work with you through your whole life so make sure you got a good education, your working with it, you stay involved, you know. And then, like to stay in church. You know, because you know everything is possible because of the Father, Jesus Christ, you know, so you got to kind of stay busy and kind of keep focus and you know, just doing the right things, you know.

Imonee White: Right.

Allan Walker: And to be your own self and let nobody kind of drag you into nothing. Know your, you know, from right from wrong, so.

Imonee White: Of course.

Allan Walker: You got to kind of, you know, just you know how your parents have brought you up, say no they didn't bring me up to do this or whatever, like that, so you got to kind of keep that thought and just don't follow what you see out there. You know, follow these people that doing something, Just don't just follow them. You know, you got to think which way they going, is that the way you want to go, the way you're trained.

Imonee White: I don't know -- if um --

Clayborn Benson: I have a couple of questions.

Clayborn Benson: Sure. > You can continue looking at her, but my question is, what kind of work did you do at A.O. Smith?

Allan Walker: When I first started at A.O. Smith I was in labor, you know, I was sweeping, cleaning. When I first started janitorial crossed to production 00:15:00worker use I would be nineteen. So I was eighteen, you know, like that. So then later on after that I went into driving. I used to be a forklift driver. And then after that I went to something they said paid more money, welding. Then I went to welding. And, when I got drafted, I think I was a welding or I was driving a forklift. But then when I end up, before I retired later on -- oh, okay, in '76 my wife passed, I left the shop and went into the office. I was in timekeeping. I would keep track of the time at the shop hours and different things like that. And the rates and things like that, I was in timekeeping until '83 when I went into security all the way through. So I was the lead security officer on third shift on A.O. Smith. I did that for seventeen years before I retired, security. I was security you know so --

Clayborn Benson: You talked about that when you left, because you left after Tower was there. You were working for Tower?

Allan Walker: Yes, I worked for two and one-half years for Tower.

Clayborn Benson: What do you feel about when A.O. Smith -- did you have any feelings about that at all?

Allan Walker: Yeah, it was kind of sad because everybody felt when Tower came in they were going to do this, but they wasn't the same as A.O. Smith. They was kind of, what you call not survey, but kind of checking things out, so they could really -- what they were about business now, but they act like they were under the same thing, but they didn't. They were just checking them out, you know, people out like that. Then they came down with a lot of things that A.O. Smith wouldn't have did. They came down with some things and then the union, fooled the union, because the union was believing that, oh, we working together with the company, Tower and all this and like that.

And then they got fooled later on when Tower jumped on them and after they got all they needed from the union, the union told the people, the employees what's what, then they could double staff the union. And so, you know, and then did that dirt, you know, like that, so they wasn't as truthful. They said they was going to be as far as working with the employees and letting the employees have 00:17:00a say so, whatever, like that, it came it down to they say, what they say, that's the way you go. You don't' have nothing to say about it, you know. So they really threw a knife into the union, you know, like that.

So there was a difference, under Tower was nothing like A.O. Smith. A.O. Smith was really family orientated, main thing, so it was good, but Tower wasn't. Because, when he came here, Tower actually wasn't used to paying that kind of money that A.O. Smith were paying, so they had lower wages where they came, they didn't want to pay that. But, A.O. Smith wasn't going to sell you had to take the automotive too. They just came for the tech part, Tower did. But A.O. Smith said, no, you have to take the automotive and all of that stuff they want to get out of, you know.

So that's what that Tower didn't want, but that's what part of the deal they had to do.

Clayborn Benson: Right.

Allan Walker: And then, they were paying money they weren't paying out before. Where they came from Michigan they were paying less wages, and plus it was mostly African American people here than they was in Michigan where they was at, 00:18:00so that's something they had to work through, you know, so different, they was different for them. So it was challenging, you know, like that so, people saw that later on that it wasn't all cushy like it was supposed to be. You know we worked together to do this and we partner and you did you had got some say in this and you got some say in that one. They did that to feel you out and then they kind of they did what they wanted to do after they got all the information.

Clayborn Benson: People, the employees were really supportive of Tower when they first came in, cleaned the parking lot, you really supported that trans from A.O. Smith to Tower?

Allan Walker: Right. Yes they did. But like I said, they did that till Tower came and showed they true self and then things kind of slacked up a little bit, you know, like that. I mean you know as Tower put down the feet. You know, then some people know where they coming from, so some people kind of they slacked off a little bit, but if you did slack off and Tower knew about it, you 00:19:00lost your job quicker and different things like that, because they wasn't going to play, because they put down their foot, that's it.

It wasn't that easy going to A.O. Smith. You know, as far as taking off on a sick leave or something like that, you know, Tower didn't play that back and forth. So it was all a big change, you know. So once people found that out they knew they couldn't do the same. Although the people that thought Tower would do the same, they lost their job, because they know Tower didn't play. People didn't come to work or did so far like that. So a lot of them lost jobs because they thought they could still do what A.O. Smith, like A.O. Smith, but they would change and found they couldn't, but some would still did that and then found out they end up losing their job because of that, they couldn't change, you know Tower didn't play that, so that’s --

Clayborn Benson: So A.O. Smith is a family oriented, was family oriented, they supported their employees and so what did, how did people feel about A.O. Smith when it went out of business? What was the mood like?

Allan Walker: Well, A.O. Smith didn't go out of business, it just let go of the 00:20:00automotive part. But they still got the place in Little Rock and you see they still got the towers up there on 107th Street, A.O. Smith, where their corporate offices. So they still in business, but they just not in the automotive business.

Clayborn Benson: Okay.

Allan Walker: They in small motors and high and stuff like that, but you know, and stuff like that. But they just let go the automotive business.

Clayborn Benson: Okay.

Allan Walker: And like that what it was. You know, and people didn't like that because it was a change, you know. But A.O. Smith is still the force. I mean if you look at its stock, A.O. Smith is still doing pretty good what they doing, dealing with, you know.

Clayborn Benson: That did impact employees when they let the automobile business go, making those frames and such?

Allan Walker: Right.

Clayborn Benson: So then, there was a change, it was a change in people lost their jobs. There are some that didn't go over with Tower. What happened to them?

Allan Walker: Well, you know, Tower still had automotive business when they came there, so people still done automotive frames. They went down, they went from a 00:21:00full frame to the, you know, the short one, they were the parts, they wouldn't the full ones like when we first started off, you know, balls, full frame. They went down to parts and different things like that, you know. So they still were doing that for a while till Tower closed, you know. But they still had frames going on, you know, while Tower was there, they were still in the frame business. But it just that they had lost a couple -- they let a couple of their frames be made out of Milwaukee area, but different things like that too, you know, that they cut short. They went somewhere else after the price on the parts, going somewhere else instead of Tower making here like we used to do.

Clayborn Benson: Yeah.

Allan Walker: They were being made somewhere else, you know, overseas and coming in and like that, so. That impacted lots of jobs and like that and money and like that, because there wasn't, we wasn't making complete parts here, you know like we had did before. So then they kind of some of those jobs they got eliminated, you know. One person might work on a job compared to where there 00:22:00may used to be two, or whatever, like that, you know, they decided to cut back like that. A person had to do more, you know, so and --

Clayborn Benson: Did everybody get pensions and did those cut backs, did they -- they obviously impact people, what did they feel about it? Did they share their thoughts about it with you?

Allan Walker: As far as the pension?

Clayborn Benson: Um-hum.

Allan Walker: Well, actually , to tell the truth, our pension wasn't like it should have been. Because like I said at that time, the union, the company is smart when they do contracts. Most the time that the union would putting the money on the wages. They wouldn't putting it on the pension and like it should have been. They were putting it like they make more money on the job, an hourly rate, or something like that. So it wasn't thought about. At that time they wasn't thinking about their pension. That's why our pension was kind of low compared to all the other companies, because it was put on the rates and the job.

And the company knew what they were doing so, but the union I guess they just wasn't that -- what is it -- this, they should have had more representation than 00:23:00them going up against the company. Because the company had lawyers and everything and some of the union people went there with their books and everything they thought they was there with the books with no lawyer. And all of a sudden they should have their attorney union lawyers to go with them, but they were there like they would know what they were doing and the company got their lawyers there, you know that the company got lawyers.

Clayborn Benson: I hear you.

Allan Walker: That's the difference and they didn't have lawyers with them, you know. So I know they were probably just laughing all the way through the company, you know. And the union thought they were getting something, but the long run they wasn't, because it wasn't all in a pension. We found out when we get our pension we found low, different, like that, so it's a shame, you know, work all those years. But that why people if you didn't save nothing, put something away something, you'd be in bad shape and a lot of them had to go get other jobs when they closed. I've seen them work at the airport and they work at other different places like that. But see, I was blessed because I always believed in saving.

That why I always believe in put away something, because you don't have to spend 00:24:00everything you make. Put away something and don't even touch it, save it for a rainy day. You know, because you never know when that rainy day may come. If it don't come, you still saving, then you could -- it be a bundle, but always put away something. I don't care if you start with $5 a week, then you might increase it to ten or whatever. But I always believe in putting away something, like a nest egg, don't touch with it, because that you don't need. Just put it away, you know, something like that, you know, so. So that's what I did all them years, so, you know but --

Clayborn Benson: Some people actually didn't get pensions or their pensions --

Allan Walker: Well, they were low. No, everybody got pensions, but it was low, like that, you know, they got pensions, but when they worked for Tower I guess kind of some of them didn't get that much. But it was cut back because, you know, A.O. Smith had theirs, you know, and like that, you know, like it said it wasn't that much anyway because it was mostly the money was focused on the job instead of the pension.

Clayborn Benson: Okay.

Allan Walker: So that was, you know, but everybody got pensions that worked, you know, but it was the amount of money was the thing about it they ain't get what 00:25:00they thought they would have. They saw that later on that it wasn't much, you know, than most companies.

Clayborn Benson: Okay. You talked about the neighborhood was impacted by the plant closing or the plant cut back. Did you see that? Did you see the change?

Allan Walker: Well later on, you could see some of the houses I mean, just before seem like them houses was being maintained and like that. But a lot of them now you see them boarded up. They just not being repaired. They kind of -- you see a difference than it was before. The neighborhood mostly was taken care of, you know, like it was, you know, they had pride in it. But later on, I guess it wasn't no, maybe the I don't know, jobs are gone and a lot of people didn't own them houses, maybe came in just to rent in.

I don't know, it just went down. It just kind of deteriorated, you know. So even, you know, so, when I stay in my area like that just people that work in 00:26:00our block, you know, just kind of a -- someone who worked there didn't have jobs the younger one growing up. They didn't have no job because before everybody was working for A.O. Smith, you know your daddy worked there, your uncle. It just wasn't there, so, it just, you know, it just wasn't too much pride in keep doing it, because I guess the money wasn't there. They had to do other means to make the money, just kind of a you see a change.

I don't know, I can't explain it all the way, but it was change that wasn't there before, you know. It was more maintained when A.O. Smith was there, people had jobs and so forth, and people took pride. And we had vehicles because, you know, the car business was doing good because everybody bought a car all the time, and the credit union gave you money to buy a car. A.O. Smith had the credit union like that so everybody had cars. They bought a new one every year, they wanted to and whatever, like that. And so, it impacted a whole lot now, so --

Clayborn Benson: What about neighborhood stores and businesses, was there an impact when A.O. Smith went out of business, did you notice that at all?

Allan Walker: Well, I know a guy had a barber shop back and forth like that you know. He used to get a lot of A.O. Smith business and neighborhood because people had jobs and stayed there for a while, and you know probably them up the street, Stan Ferguson. He used to have one on 27th Street before you get to A.O. Smith over there. And I've been knowing him for years, because I went to MIT with him back in the '60s. But, well, them stores, I guess they wasn't , you know money wouldn't come to them like it would before because A.O. Smith people we used go there and buy them lunch meat, sandwich and everything to take it to the job and make a good lunch, you like the meat and we'd all hit them stores over there, you know.

We didn't go to them bars that had food there in between breaks. You know, you serve food. You know we'd go over there because they had, you know, thriving they were spending money, but, you know, so. Yeah, they felt it you know back and forth like that, you know. Some that wouldn't getting it. I guess later on you saw they were closed you know. Because another group came in and took them 00:28:00over, you know, so, you know, like that it was a change, you know. It's changed. I guess it was a chain reaction, you know, like that, surely but surely you see it.

So it had to be an impact because of that too also we have lost.

Clayborn Benson: Good. Okay, Clayborn Benson participated in the interview questioning, thank you.

Imonee White: Thank you Mr. Walker.

Allan Walker: Okay. Allan Walker Interview, June 23, 2015

12