Interview with William "Monk" Campbell, June 22, 2015, Milwaukee, Wisconsin



Jameel Russell: Today is Monday, June 22, 2015. The time is 11:11 a.m. I am Jameel Russell, the interviewer. The Oral Historian is Mr. William Campbell. This project is titled "Oral Histories on Plant Closings in Milwaukee." Okay. I'd like to start by beginning and I'll ask you, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and where you were born and your background, and stuff like that?

William Campbell: I was born in Decatur, Alabama to William and Charity Campbell. And shortly after I was born, they moved to Birmingham, Alabama. I spent my five or six or seven years in Birmingham. And we moved to Milwaukee in 00:01:00the 40s.

I don't know exactly what year, but it was early 40s because I went to 9th Street School, and they put me back into the fourth grade when I got here.

Jameel Russell: Okay.

William Campbell: And I went to Roosevelt after that. Spent a couple of years at North Division and then I gave the army four years of my life, Air Force.

Jameel Russell: Okay.

William Campbell: And I've been here ever since.

Jameel Russell: Do you have any children ?

William Campbell: Yes, I have four boys and one girl.

Jameel Russell: Okay. I've heard you went to MATC College and took the barber program.

William Campbell: Went to MATC College for Barber.

Jameel Russell: Barber shop program?

William Campbell: Yes, that -- after I got out of service, couldn't find a job nowhere, because they said I didn't have a work record. I didn't understand that how you give four years of your life in the service and you come out -- 00:02:00American Motors was hiring and they were hot. They were hiring. I went up there and put in an . Went all over putting in an application. Nobody would hire me. So, and then a friend of mine, we always said when we got out of service, we're going to beauty college.

So then his mother opened up a shop and he said -- he wrote me a letter. I hadn't seen him – I was over in France. He said, "Monk, we're going to change. We're not going to Beauty College. We're going to barber college because mom got a shop and we're going to work for her." And I said, "Okay." So, after I got discharged from the service, I couldn't find a job and I worked around doing construction work for two seasons.

And I put in an application for the city. They called me the third season. I 00:03:00went to work for them for one season. Then I -- the school called me to come to school the fourth season. So I've been involved with it ever since.

Jameel Russell: Okay. Do you have ambition for barbery ? Like doing barber shops and cutting hair, is that what you really wanted to do or liked to do?

William Campbell: I loved it. I love it. I'm still a barber, but I learned to love it. I guess I was a natural for it because I stayed in business. I've been cutting hair now for over 50 years. So I must like it.

Jameel Russell: I heard you opened up your own shop. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

William Campbell: Oh yeah. Like I said, I worked for Mildred Salles . She was the first woman barber in Wisconsin. She went to school -- like I said, she opened up her own shop. And her daddy worked for this guy’s Spot Shots, and 00:04:00so after she opened up her own shop, he went over there with her. And her son Joe Salles , he went to barber school before me, because I was in the service.

So when I got out, I went to barber school too. I came out and went to work for her too. So I worked for her for 15 years. And as I was -- you know, my kids were growing and they got in their teens, so I needed a little bit more money. I went to her. I says, "I got to go. I've got to go and do something for myself now." And she convinced me to go in business with her.

So we opened up -- I got a small business loan from the city or it's probably the federal government. And opened up a shop on Green Bay Avenue, between and 00:05:00. State.

Jameel Russell: Did you-- oh excuse me.

William Campbell: Go ahead.

Jameel Russell: Okay. Did you want to continue your family tradition as a barber shop? Like the barber shop chain and work ethic, do you want to continue your family's culture with that, or do you just have a feel for it?

William Campbell: I had a son that went to Beauty College. And he went and got his -- passed everything. And as he was growing up he got hooked up with the people with that stuff. And he started doing that stuff and I told him I didn't want that in my shop.

And he kept on doing it so he -- now he's 50 years old, got a family, and he 00:06:00wish he had a -- you know how that goes. But now he's straight and he's cool.

Jameel Russell: Okay.

William Campbell: But nobody else in my family wants to do it.

Jameel Russell: Okay.

William Campbell: None of my other sons.

Jameel Russell: I heard that your shop was very popular. And had a good reputation. I also heard that even Packer players came over there sometimes.

William Campbell: Oh, yeah. I'm sorry that I didn't -- you know, people take advantage of those type of things, using them for advertisement. And I only have one picture in my barber shop of some of the Green Bay Packers when they were Vince Lombardi’s days. And I only have one picture of them. And I cut a lot of guys' hair from the Packers, the Bucks, the Marquette -- all the 00:07:00Marquette kids used to come there that played football -- basketball there.

I got a -- I wish I had the pictures to show, but I don't have none.

Jameel Russell: Okay.

William Campbell: I was young and I thought I was the thing, so I wasn't interested in them guys. You know, I was interested in them, but I just didn't you know, think that it had any material value.

Jameel Russell: Okay.

William Campbell: Yeah.

Jameel Russell: Alright. Back then, I heard everybody's doing well. You know, working and stuff like that, providing for their family, when the plants were open. And then the plants all spontaneously just shut down. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

William Campbell: Oh yeah. It was -- well it started getting slow before then, but when they start redeveloping Milwaukee, they tore down Street for the 00:08:00expressway. That's where most of the entrepreneurs of black people had their businesses, between 3rd Street and 11th Street.

It was just business, business, business. Different kind of business. Pool halls, restaurants, taverns, grocery store, it was just nice. And then when the city came and destroyed that, that -- well they destroyed it and said they were building an expressway through, but some of that's -- some of Water Street is nothing but desert land.

They still ain't -- right now, they just started building some stuff on 6th 00:09:00Street. Sixth and Seventh Street on street. There's a lot of stuff that ain't never been redone there. And there ain't no expressway going through there either. They had it -- it was supposed to go through Fond du Lac. They were supposed to tear down the Sears building all that stuff and go out west. Never did. Never did.

Jameel Russell: Do you know why that could be?

William Campbell: I think that it was designed to divide and conquer. That's what I think. Most of the time -- and it didn't only happen here in Milwaukee. It happened all over the country. You know, Chicago the same way. 63rd and Grove and over there, was a lot of nightclubs and things.

And we used -- when I was real young, we used to go over there, and me and my wife used to go over there, and listen to music, you know, and stay overnight and come back. But all of that's gone. I mean and like neighborhood. I don't know. I just think it was designed to divide us. That's what I really think.

Jameel Russell: Did the plant closings around the area of your barber shop, did it have any effect on your customer service or-- ?

William Campbell: Yes it did.

Jameel Russell: Your work ethic?

William Campbell: And after that, after that happened, then they start later on, they started, the plants started move in here -- moved away. I understand when it was the first one. I understand was moved away. But they kept a little 00:11:00stuff there for a while, then they closed down. And it was a lot of steel mills, a lot of foundries, a lot of those closed down.

And every time one of these places would close down, that affected the black neighborhood because those people wasn’t working. Those people weren't working anymore. They had to find other jobs and those jobs paid the most money. Not hourly wages but a lot of them paid money on the overtime. Guys used to come in, "I've got me 48 hours."

"I got in 50 hours this week. My check was this and that." You know? And it was good business for barber shops and things and all black businesses. And then as the plants started closing, people started going out of business and 00:12:00everything. And it just had a big -- and A.O. Smith, boy, that really hurt.

That really hurt when they went out of business. There was a lot of people worked there.

Jameel Russell: What did you guys do different in your business and you work ethic to suffice what was going on with the plant closings going around. Because your business still exists even today. So what did you guys do?

William Campbell: You just -- I did a lot of advertising myself, you know? I was one of the first barbers in the city to start doing natural haircuts.

Jameel Russell: Oh okay.

William Campbell: The big ball haircuts.

Jameel Russell: Yes.

William Campbell: So that was during the time when they were popular, and I got into it. And the barber shop that I worked in got into it, and we rolled it out with that -- but when you -- when people wear their hair long, they don't get haircuts as often. So, you know. It -- but it balanced itself out. You still made a living, you know? And then after that craze came, then the collegiates.

Those became popular. The waves that the guys have in their hair, they cut it short and they have it waved up, wear--

Jameel Russell: Yes.

William Campbell: Wear stocking caps and it down and make the waves show. So that helped a lot because they got their hairs cut more often. A guy get his 00:14:00hair cut today and he'll get it lined next week to keep it sharp, you know? So that helped. It always seemed like some transition would come into barbering that would make it where you could make a -- still make a living.

But like I said, when my kids got about 15, 16, I thought -- in the teens -- I thought that it was necessary for me to. Tried to get some more money and get some barbers that worked for me. So I could upgrade my finance.

Jameel Russell: Okay.

William Campbell: And it worked for a while, you know? And then that's the way it went.

Jameel Russell: Okay. Where there any unions or protesting that happened as a result of plant closings and did you participate in any?

William Campbell: I didn't participate in any plant closing because we didn't 00:15:00have any -- we didn't have no ties with the unions and stuff. The city I think had a lot to do with that because they started having more environmental things put on the factories. Tried to make them upgrade so they wouldn't be so destructive to the environment. And I think that hurt a lot.

They started moving up. And then that's the only thing that I could see in that hurt anything because vocational school was turning out welders and everything. We had the workforce here is tremendous. You've got machinists and everything. And they had the people here to do the work. But I think a lot of that had to 00:16:00do with the unions that the highways use, and environmental things that happened, that made them close.

William Campbell: So they start moving out, one by one, and selling out and just destroyed the city industrial part of Wisconsin. That's what I think.

Jameel Russell: Was there anything in the advertisement before the plant closed, like in the news or anything like that, in newspapers that hint towards the fact that it was going to close? Did you get ?

William Campbell: There was a lot of stuff in the paper. Every time one closed -- American Motors was a great example of that. When they came over here and they put out that little car, they were doing business. Tremendous, a lot of people worked there. Closed that down. Then the breweries started closing 00:17:00down. Schlitz closed down. All of that hurt the black neighborhood, because it's in the black neighborhood. And it was a long time before -- that the breweries would even hire black people.

And by the time the breweries start hiring black people, they close. Something happen to Schlitz. They said that they -- one year they tried to manufacture a beer faster than they had previously, and the people didn't like the taste of it and they went flat. They started losing. And I think when Bob Uihlein passed away, or whatever happened to him, he died, then the family closed it down.

Closed that plant down. Then Pabst closed down. Then Miller arose they became 00:18:00pretty big. And I went to work there too. I went over I worked there for 15 years with Miller Brewing Company I think Philip Morris bought it. They started hiring people and I got in there.

Mr. Shropshire was the Vice President of the brewery. I started cutting his hair and he got me in there and I stayed. I was only going there for two years. I ended up staying 23. Because it was a good job and helped with my family too. Yes.

Jameel Russell: You said earlier that you said, when your barber shop, that while the plants were closing, during that situation you said that what you were 00:19:00doing with the new hairstyles and stuff like that was working for a while. Would you like to elaborate on that? Like, what did you have to do after that while was up to like keep up with demand and-- ?

William Campbell: By then I was well established in the city. And a lot -- like I said, a lot of people knew me. And I still had a good flow of customers. I got two other barbers and then I got -- I had a full shop. I had four at one time. So that helped a lot. Then I lost one -- he went to Oklahoma, opened up a shop.

And I lost another one. He went and opened up his shop in Milwaukee here. And 00:20:00then I had another one that went to Minnesota and -- all of them are doing good. One of the guys went out of business. He became a preacher. The other guy that went to Oklahoma, he opened up his shop and he ran it for about 5 or 6, 7, 8 years and I think he got sick and he gave it up.

The guy that went to Minnesota, he quit barbering altogether and started doing some other things. And he's doing fine. Yeah.

Jameel Russell: During that -- when the plants closed, you know, all these people are out of work and stuff like that, looking for jobs and pretty desperate. Did you like -- like did a lot of people -- potential employees come over and ask could they have a job at your barber shop, specifically as a result of plant closings? The people that used to work there, did a lot of people come 00:21:00in and ask, "Are there any openings here or-- ?"

William Campbell: Yeah, we picked up a couple of barbers, but they didn't last long. One guy said, "You guys are too good for me." He said, "Y’all cut too good. I can't make no money here."

Jameel Russell: Yes.

William Campbell: He left. And then the processing was in, and we got a guy that did -- I never did do a process. So he was pretty good and he stayed. And that helped to bring in business. You couldn't take on -- like when I worked for Mildred, the barber -- her daddy was there, she was there, I was there, there wasn't room for nobody but one other person.

So, we kept it going and you know.

Jameel Russell: Did you-- When you was in the Air Force, did you take any of 00:22:00those skills you learned or discipline?

William Campbell: I didn't have -- oh discipline. Discipline?

Jameel Russell: Yes, did you provide like--?

William Campbell: That learned me a lot. I grew up. I think the Air Force made me a better person than I would have been had I not went into serve. It gave me opportunities. Like I said, it sent me to school, learned a trade. We had a federal loan and it helped me buy me a home for my kids. I probably wouldn't have never been able to do that if I hadn't been in the Air Force.

And that helped a lot. I grew up in there. It taught me how to be disciplined, on time, and endurance. Because you -- when you're in the service, you've got 00:23:00to go whether you want.

Jameel Russell: Exactly.

William Campbell: You can't lay in the boats and say, "I'm sick." You're going to get out of there. You go to the doctor or to where they sent you, and if wasn’t nothing -- if wasn't nothing wrong with you, you go back and get in line and do what you had to do. You know, so yeah, I learned a lot in the service. I think it made a better person out of me. Really.

Jameel Russell: Okay.

William Campbell: In all aspects.

Jameel Russell: Did you choose to go in the Air Force or were you -- because I heard back then there was a lot of drafts.

William Campbell: Well, when I went in service, it used to be the Army Air Force. The Army Air Force. And Air Force was breaking away from the Army. So they were recruiting a lot of people just for the Air Force. So I was fortunate 00:24:00enough to get in the Air Force because they needed people.

And I couldn't pass the test to get in the Air Force now, because it -- the army, the Air Force, the marines, and everybody, you have to be -- have a little education to get in there. They don't -- if you don't have a high school education, I don't think they'll even take you now. I'm not sure of that but I know you have to have some fat on your head to get in the service there. And I didn't have too much fat on my head, because I left school in the 10th grade and went in the Air Force.

Jameel Russell: If the plants were not to close and stayed open, do you think that would -- things would be better or --?

William Campbell: Oh man, it would -- if you cannot supply people with jobs, you 00:25:00bring in these other bad things. You get bored young kids seeing people with cars and things and they want them. So if they don't have opportunities to get a job, and everybody's not smart.

I mean not intellectually smart. They're good with their hands. They can do some things. And if the opportunity's not there, they can't get no jobs to make a decent living, then you're going to have all these other interjections into society. Undesirable interjections. Until the society that keeps growing and growing. That's why some things are so bad around here now. These kids don't have -- and the little kids, we had social centers, things to do.

They don't have nothing to do. There's no social centers, very few. Where I am now, they took down the basketball courts and garden gnomes. And the kids liked to play basketball. You take that away, where you going? Out in the streets. You know, so it's the plants closing, either the parents of the kids, they have to take lesser jobs. And they dibble and dabble into things that they probably would never have done but you know, just to try to make a living.

You know? I don’t know--life.

Jameel Russell: You have children, so do you believe that the plant closings had indirect effect on them, like the next generation? Like you said earlier, kids see people with cars and stuff and that gives them ambition to go out and do 00:27:00what they gotta do. Did you have to like do something different with your children to basically keep them from knowing what's going on in society?

William Campbell: Well, like I said, they got caught up in it, some of it too. My kids did. But after a while, me talking and talking and telling them and talking, they got to be better people that I'm proud of all of them now. They're good citizens of the city. One of my sons is a little pastor of his church. My other son is the deacon in his church.

I got one that works for the VA. And the other one, he's a maintenance man. The baby boy had a scholarship to go to Whitewater to play football. He went up 00:28:00there and he messed up his shoulder and didn't want to stay in school no more. So, he said there wasn't no social life up there.

I thought that was ridiculous. "You didn't go up there to get -- for a social life. You went to get an education."

Jameel Russell: Exactly.

William Campbell: And, I don't know. I think I might have had something to do with that because I didn't get no education and I wanted them to get it, you know? And they saw me doing pretty well without it, but I had a trade. And so they thought they could make it out of here. So, you know, they have their bumps and dumps and downs, but they survive it.

Jameel Russell: Despite the plant closings, are you satisfied with the outcome 00:29:00of the way things went in your life with your, you know, work ethic and the way, the direction, it went?

William Campbell: With me, I am -- I could have did a lot of other things, I think, had I had my head screwed on right. But as it turned out, I'm pleased. I'm pleased because I did make a living for my kids and I did -- I have my own farm and I -- I had the American dream to speak.

You know, I want the American dream but I had some parts of it. Maybe not all, but I had a piece of it. And I owe it all to my military experience and my mother and father of course. I had to my grandma, my mama, my dad, my uncles, 00:30:00all of them could beat your butt when you stepped out of line, you know?

So all of that. I can't say I'm satisfied because a lot of my friends, they went to jail for obvious reasons, doing that dope and stuff. And I think that four years that I was gone, that kept me out of that. And when I came back home, all I wanted to do was get a job and try to make me some money and do good for myself.

So, I guess that's okay.

Jameel Russell: As an African American male, what do you believe is your mission in society or for the next generation for you to do in your life, specifically 00:31:00as an African American?

William Campbell: When I was younger, I did a lot of things. I marched with Brother Groppi for open housing. I was on the board of directors at House for about two, three years. I did my -- now, all I do is try to be a consultant to the kids that come in my barber shop, and give them good advice, try to give them good advice.

Ones that ain't going right, I try to talk to them and tell them, "You can do better." You know, that's all I can do. I'm burnt out. Burnt out. But any kind of way that I can help without giving too much of me away, I ain't got too 00:32:00much energy to do a lot of things that a lot of people do, but I try to do the best I can and try to help in any way I can in my little, small world.

Jameel Russell: In your barber shop, you know, you're cutting hair and people are telling stories about what's going on in society and stuff and what they experienced yesterday and everything.

William Campbell: Oh man, we have a lot of that.

Jameel Russell: Did you hear anything in particular about the plant closings? Like do you hear what effects that had on other African Americans that came in your shop?

William Campbell: Oh yeah, it killed them. When, like I said, A.O. Smith and the breweries closed, that killed a lot of people. That took away their livelihoods, you know? And those are good paying jobs. And when you lose those 00:33:00jobs, it's hard to regroup and find other jobs to take their place. So these guys, instead of them being progressive, they degressed .

Their families degressed. It had effect on the families and everybody, you know? A.O. Smith, by the time Tower took over, if you didn't have enough time in A.O. Smith, you lost a lot. A lot of those people lost their insurance. They don't have no insurance. They have to get other kind of insurances and things that ain't good as the regular people that worked.

The unions went -- couldn't do nothing no more because of the power that the plants had over. And it just -- Pabst the same way. Miller had to pick up and 00:34:00give them some insurance just to -- I guess because of the union I guess. And they helped them out but a lot of those guys over there, they struggling.

They still struggling because the plants closing. Yeah. A guy could have 15, 16, 17 years, they really got messed when Tower came. But the guys that had more time in that, they kind of got away pretty good because they were under the A.O. Smith thing. You know?

Jameel Russell: What was your customer base like race wise? Like was it just strictly African Americans came in here or was it people ?

William Campbell: I did, all of my customers was black. I had a few maybe, you 00:35:00know, one here, one there, that would come in, but mostly it was black.

Jameel Russell: You say you had some come here, one here, one there. Like when that particular person, like let's say like a person that's not African American walk in there and they told a story about what happened with the plant closings, was their story different in contrast to African American story? Like was it as, like you said, it was getting depressed with the situation. Did they have just as hard time as they did?

William Campbell: We living in a white world. And sure it hurt everybody, but they had a better chance of regrouping than blacks. You know, because it's a 00:36:00white world. It's a white world. And you're gonna always -- and people on the top is always going to take care of their selves.

If you -- the construction company, take construction for example. When I was young, man, everybody, a lot of people were working construction. Black, white, everybody was working it. You had foremen, black foremen on the construction job, especially black top. And when jobs got scarce and the money was good in construction, right, so the neighbors kids was out of work and daddy's out of work, so what you think?

They laid off the blacks and hired the whites. And as they hired the whites, then you see all these big cement mixers and these pavement things that you just -- trucks running behind it and dump over into this big thing and it goes down the street back and forth, back and forth, and spread it. You cut out a lot of finishers that used to finish.

There was guys they call the . They could -- they had one truck come and they -- when they'd dump it into the street, they had three or four guys in the middle of it, shoveling it and throwing -- and spots were there was none. And so you had a lot of work. And people did that. Now they come up and like I 00:38:00said, when the work got scarce, the white people didn't hire black people no more.

They started hiring whites. Now, you, don't take my word for it, go out there and look at that expressway now and see how many black people you see out there. Very few. Very, very few. White folks done took it all over because it's the money in it. Plus that, plus that they got -- they upgraded the machines now. They've got big machines that's doing work for 10 to 15 people and put it out -- put you out of work.

Now you've got construction it's hard as hell for black people to get in construction. And you very -- you have very few contractors that does that work. And then you have to -- there's a lot of things you have to bid on and 00:39:00the bigger you are, the lower you can bid and still make money. If you small, you can't do that. So, you're in a Catch 22 there.

It's very, I don't know how to say that. They're competitive. Very competitive. You really got to be sharp and you really got to be -- you've got to be real sharp with it and know people. Politics. I'll just leave it like that. It's politics man.

Jameel Russell: What do you believe strictly is the reason for the plants closing? Do you think it was to serve the elites and have their way with the way money was flowing, or do you think it was some sort of like racism, something like that?

William Campbell: I know that you heard of the guy who ran for president against 00:40:00Obama, right? What's his name? I can't think of it?

Jameel Russell: Mitt Romney.

William Campbell: You heard about his -- the type of things that he did, don't you? He would buy companies and utilize them until he used them up, and then he'd sell them off. And buy up other companies, and sell them off. His daddy had American Motors out here. And American Motors was doing good for a while and they sold it off and plants closed.

No work. Starve you out. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. The way I see it now, they're trying to make America like the third world countries. They 00:41:00don't want no middle class. They trying to get rid of the middle class. All they want is rich and poor. Rich and poor. And they're doing a pretty good job of it.

I think. But it's going to get better I hope.

Jameel Russell: Even today, there's some areas that's leftover for like -- they have open landscaping stuff that's going to be factories in the future. Do you believe what happened back then will repeat itself inevitably or do you think it will be different?

William Campbell: Repeat that.

Jameel Russell: Back, in some areas, like there's going to be factories built there.

William Campbell: Where do you see -- oh those small factories?

Jameel Russell: Like little small factories, exactly. And then they're going to be built there. Do you think what's going to happen -- what happened back then is going to happen again ?

William Campbell: The big ones going -- the big -- if you're got a good product 00:42:00and it's going great, and you're servicing -- for example, can companies. We had American Can, you had a lot of can companies. What happened was when Miller came here, they bought a can company. So they controlled the can company. So they worked for the can company.

The can company worked for Miller. And they closed them -- they found another way to do that. They quit having the can company and they got rid of the can company. They found another way to get the material from other places. So that's some more jobs gone. Even though the little manufacturing companies that come up, they are going -- they depend on the big companies.

So, when the big companies will buy them out and make lower wages and everything else. Miller Brewing Company, now if you go down there and you want a job, you're not -- when I went there, whatever they were getting, whatever everybody else was getting, that's what you got. And then now you go down there, they got a certain amount of money they going to pay you to come in.

But then you might get a raise every so often. Every six months, every year. Every time the unions change, you -- they'll give you something or take away something. Whatever. But it ain't the same no more. Nothing's the same. And they got robots in there. They got things that took away a lot of jobs. I 00:44:00think when I was there, there's over two thousand people was in the plant.

Now, I don't know but I bet you it's less than half now of brewery workers. Not up in corporate but brewery workers I'm saying. That really manufact the beer and do all the things to make the beer. I bet it's less than half when I was there. So, with technology, the technology and all of this, it's depreciating the -- your worth.

A human being's worth. And there's things that they're doing now too to take 00:45:00that -- take its place, you know? Like computers and people working computer and guys that program the computers and all of that stuff.

There's jobs for them but you've got to be educated, get some -- like I said. Get some fat on your head. And there ain't no room for dummies no more. Ain't no room for dummies. So you just got to get educated and you need education. But there's a lot of people that's got the education and now you go to these jobs, they'll tell you, "You over qualified." Have you ever heard that?

You overqualified because they don't want to pay you for your worth, or they got enough people in that position, that they can't afford to pay. And they -- it look bad for them to hire you and pay you less money. You know? I know guys that went to school and the jobs just -- they got into the managerial position and the job just disappeared after a while.

They cut that department or that particular manager out of that position and put another person over position. And he has to go -- they gave him some money to go find him another job and stuff like that. And he went and found another job. 00:47:00They said they was going -- he was going to be in the same position that he was in, and he worked there for about a year or two.

They put him back on that plane and he was out selling again like he was a younger person. Like he just got there, so. So he had to take less pay and all that.

Jameel Russell: Earlier you said, with the barber shop, you had the first African-American female in there. Do you think that attracted more of a female customer base and provided more opportunity for them. Made them--?

William Campbell: Well she was the first -- she was the first black -- like I said, she was the first barber in Wisconsin. She was the first woman that ever became a barber. So I'm sure that that helped her when she started, and plus, like I said, her daddy had a very good name as a barber. He was -- he worked at 00:48:00this place, Spot Shots on Sixth Street.

He worked there. That was a very popular barber shop. I went there and got my hair cut when I was a kid. So her daddy was cutting hair in there. So when she opened up her shop, he came with her. That brought a lot of his customers there. She being a lady, and brought more people in, you know, and it'd grown. So, yeah that helped.

Jameel Russell: Okay. And one other question. Why do people call you Monk ?

William Campbell: Ah. Oh man, that's a long -- my grandma, she was very instrumental in my life too. She made me have responsibility when I was 12, 13 years old. My grandmamma was the head of my daddy, my uncles, my whole family. 00:49:00She was the boss. And all of them, when they get paid, they brought the money to her. She gave me the money to go and pay the house note and all of them little old stores that used to be up on Street.

The credit stores called and stuff. So she'd give me the money to go pay them. I went into that to tell you that she was the one that named me Monk. She was a -- one of the first, I hate to say, she was one of the first black women that they used to -- she was a preacher.

She was a preacher. Evangelist preacher, I'd just say, because at that time, they didn't -- Baptist people didn't want no black -- didn't want no women in their pulpit. And the church that I went to, they allowed my grandma to preach one day out of the month. And I forgot what day it was. But anyway, when I was a little, bitty boy, she used to read these books, detective books about Monk, this guy.

And he must have been a real tough guy or something. So she started calling me Old Bad Monk, Old Bad Monk. And it just grew from that. And then everybody called -- started calling me in the family called me Monk. After I got going to school, they called me Monk. And half of the kids that I went to school with, 00:51:00now don't really know my real name. Some of the teachers at Roosevelt Junior High School would call me Monk instead of my real name.

That's how crazy that is. And kids I went to school with, right now, if you say, "Do you know William Campbell?" they'll say, "No." "Do you know a guy named Monk?" "Oh, I know Monk." My name, it don't mean nothing. It's Monk. So after all of that, I just -- my shop is called Monk's Barber Shop. You know, I just kept the name.

Jameel Russell: You said a lot of people became preachers back then after the plant closed and you -- do you believe in an African American community that the--

William Campbell: I didn't say that. I did not say that.

Jameel Russell: Well, there was like you said--

William Campbell: I said my grandma was the first woman preacher that was 00:52:00allowed to preach in this one church that we belonged to. Friendship Missionary Baptist Church was started on Ninth and Lee. I can't tell you the name of the preacher that started the church.

But then we moved from there across the street on the other side of the street. And she, like I said, she was a minister. She'd been -- she was a minister. She didn't have a church but she -- occasionally she would preach at other churches. At Friendship Missionary Baptist Church, they had her -- they would allow her to preach one Sunday out of the month.

And then the church changed and another preacher took over after Reverend 00:53:00Williams died. Reverend Hughes took the church and he wouldn't allow no women in his pulpit. So my grandma left that church. I was in service when that happened. So. But yeah, I didn't say people went to being preachers. She just happened to be a minister.

Yes.

Jameel Russell: Do you believe churches in African American community helped African Americans in particular, cope with what was going on with the plant closings and giving them some sort of remission and faith base -- like hope, to let them know that things will be alright and that they'll be able to recover from this?

William Campbell: Religion has always played a big part in black people's lives, so far as I'm concerned. When I was young, I had to go to church, Sunday 00:54:00school, I was in junior choir. So every time that the junior choir sang at 11 o'clock, I had to be at church. And then I had a little time left on Sunday to go to the movie, the Regal Theater, and I had to get out of there by 5 o'clock so I could get back to BTU.

So yes, and when I was a kid, Reverend Morris had a -- he was sanctified. And he had a program that used to come on at 11 or 12 o'clock at night. Now my grandma would let me go up there to that church. They would be on the radio. And we'd go up there and sit up there and when the service was over, those 00:55:00sanctified people shouted and stuff.

And we got a kick out of that. Yeah. Yeah. That's what -- religion is always part of black people's lives. You can catch the biggest sinner in the world, he going to -- some time he's going to get up on Sunday and go to church right now. And they talking about this little thing that happened down there in Carolina.

You know how those people didn't raise no sand and all of that. That was terrible when the people went into that church, that boy went in that church and shot those people. Church has always been a savior for black people. We pray. 00:56:00We are very faith minded people as a whole.

Very much so. Very much. And not only today, but in the history of black people. That's part of their foundation is the church. Everything derived from the church. I always say, "We got more religion than anybody in the world. We suffer the most."

That's funny, but that's true.

Jameel Russell: Yes. That's all I have for you today Mr.Cambell. I have no more questions.

William Campbell: You don't have no more questions.

Jameel Russell: Nope. And thanks for your time Mr. Campbell. I appreciate it.

William Campbell: I appreciate talking to you brother. It was nice.