Interview with Paul Blackman, June 25, 2015, Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Jameel Russell: OK, today is-- today's date is June 25, 2015 at 11:53 a.m. I am Jameel Russell, the interviewer. The oral historian is Mr. Blackman. The project is titled "Oral Histories on Plant Closings in Milwaukee." OK. I'd start by asking you, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and-- or your background, stuff like that?

Paul Blackman: Yes. I was the Former President of the Smith Steel Workers--

Jameel Russell: OK--

Paul Blackman: -- for a period of 20 years.

Jameel Russell: OK, I heard you worked for A.O. Smith, can you tell me about that?

Paul Blackman: Yes, the Smith Steel Workers' membership was 6000 and they were employed by the A.O. Smith Corporation. And the A.O. Smith Corporation at that particular time was the largest manufacturer of automobile and truck frames in the world and employed close to 10 to 11,000 people at any given time.

Jameel Russell: I heard you worked for unions also, can you tell me about that too?

Paul Blackman: You want to say that again?

Jameel Russell: I also heard you worked for unions too--

Paul Blackman: Yeah, I just said that I was President of the Smith Steel Workers . I was President of the Smith Steel Workers, AFL-CIO which was the second largest local union in the state.

Jameel Russell: OK, how was the work environment? Was it peaceful overall or was it some sort of conflict or anything?

Paul Blackman: Well, it depends upon the time of the year. The work environment, it was-- especially after I became president, it was the best place to work in the city. And because it was the best paying job not only in the city of the state, probably in the country based upon the kind of work that we did.

Jameel Russell: How did you become president of the company?

Paul Blackman: It wasn't easy. What we did was, there was-- I was a steward in the shop. I was a welder. And we were having some problems with the officers that were in power. They were not representing us, they were not forwarding our grievances. And, well, we put together a group called the Stewards Action Committee.

And we decided that the best thing for us to do was to take over the union. And that's when we started compiling information and recruiting people to help us take over the union.

Jameel Russell: How long did that process take getting information to go--

Paul Blackman: It was probably about maybe four or five-month effort because at 00:03:00that particular time, the elections were every two years. And so we had to get it done because we wanted to take over the union before-- get our before the next election.

Jameel Russell: Were there any conflicts while you guys were in that process gathering information? Were they trying to stop you basically from doing what you're doing?

Paul Blackman: Well, they were a little bit surprised because what we did was we had, we had copy machines, we had the printing press. And we printed articles and passed them out at the gate. This was something that was brand new to the people who were in office. And I don't think they had any idea of the impact that this kind of advertisement would have. Because in those articles, we were explaining exactly what the problems were and the reason why we were asking the 00:04:00people to vote for us instead of them, and because their grievances weren't being serviced.

And we did that almost every week. We had a pamphlet at the gate explaining the problems. And that took them by surprise, they were not able to, you know, to combat that. So as a consequence, during the election, we swept everybody out of the office and we took over. And that's how I became the president of the union.

Jameel Russell: OK, as the president, you must have a lot of jurisdiction. Do you believe-- what do you believe was your mission specifically as African-American male now that you have this high position to-- what do you expect-- what you had to do?

Paul Blackman: Well there was no doubt in my mind that the things for me to do was because we had a large number of Joe William Trotter's Industrial 00:05:00Proletariat and black Milwaukee who had-- they were the offsprings of the industrial proletariats who had migrated into Milwaukee and finally were hired by A.O. Smith because originally A.O. Smith was not hiring any black people at all.

And it wasn't until after World War II that the government came in with the FEPC and forced A.O. Smith to start hiring African Americans if they wanted to continue to get government contracts for the war this was during World War II. And that was the beginning of the hiring and after the war then they gradually just start hiring, you know, more African Americans and these African Americans 00:06:00had to be trained because they were not skilled and I felt that, that was my job to make sure that they got trained.

To make sure that the jobs that had been denied them before were open to them that had included every classification that the union had control of and it wasn't long before that was possible. So that was my goal, is to make sure that the African Americans that were there had an opportunity to get into the good paying meaningful jobs because that's what they needed.

Jameel Russell: Was it difficult to train them, you said they were unskilled when they first came in.

Paul Blackman: Well no because the training was available, what would happen was that this training just wasn't offered to African Americans. The majority of 00:07:00the training was for the white employees and that's where I came in to makes sure that everybody, everybody was eligible for a training for the different positions.

Jameel Russell: Was wage equal back then with-- and particularly--

Paul Blackman: Well let me just tell you, when I became president of the Smith Skill Workers, the average wage and I'm talking about average wage because different classifications paid different wages. The average wage, was $4.45, OK, and when I left. When I retired in 1993, 1993 the average wage was $19.65.

So I think what-- to put that in perspective in ‘93, $19.65. Here we are 2015 00:08:00and they’re out there struggling for $15. So the people that-- under my jurisdiction, I made it possible for them-- to become the highest paid industrial workers not only in the state but in the country.

And that's why you see that the people that were-- well had worked at A.O. Smith during the time that I was residing as president were able to buy homes, buy cars, send their kids to school.

Jameel Russell: How did it feel to be president, like did you feel like you had a lot of ambition and did you believe that your job was influential in society?

Paul Blackman: Well I went into the actually back in 72, we were still 00:09:00struggling, African Americans were still struggling and so I went on to the job and, you know, with a definite purpose is to change that, you know. So it was something that I looked forward to was changing that and having the opportunity to turn everything around and give African Americans an opportunity to earn a meaningful wage so that they can take care of their family and send their kids to school, buy homes, was a real challenge for me and that's what I wanted to do.

And I woke up every morning with that goal in mind.

Jameel Russell: Did anything in a news or newspapers hint towards the plant closings or anything like that. Do you have sorts of a forewarning--

Paul Blackman: Well, plant closings-- the plant did not ever close doing the 00:10:00period that I was there. There were lay offs from time to time, but there were no plant closings and if you meaning to plant closing the plant shutting down completely that did not happen under my watch.

So lay offs happened in the summer when there was a change over because we made automobile and truck frames and whenever the automobile industry would change a model from year to year we shut down to make those changes to be able to fit their new designs and so there is usually a lay off period especially for the people that just been hired of maybe a month and a half to two months during the summer, but other than that there were no plant closings.

It happened that as time went on and we got into the industrial revolution there were significant lay offs instead of maybe laying off 150 they'd lay off maybe 400 or 750 and so that we had those kinds of problems, but during my reign there were no plant closings.

Jameel Russell: Why do you believe these plant closings happened over time? Do you think the advance for technology made human worth less in--

Paul Blackman: No, and let me just tell you what happened. It was the industrial revolution. Since people stopped farming, there have been two, three 00:12:00industrial revolutions and what I mean by that is how people make things. How corporations make things. There was first the craft system and the craft system was people make things with their hand.

They would put together moldings and they would hammer and mold something and they would weld that together, that was the craft system and you know about the craft system, there are some things that are done by hand now. The craft system is the best system except that it takes forever, you know. For example when they started making automobiles and they were making them by hand.

We would probably make 10 to 15 automobiles per year. And of course you have to 00:13:00have a lot of money to, you know-- but the industry of that was the mass productions system that took over the craft system. The mass production system was a system that was founded by Henry Ford and what he did is he took the craft system, split it up into different portions put all of that on a conveyer belt.

And this conveyer belt was able to run these parts into what they call the fixture and they would weld this together and send them to the end of the line. That was called the mass production system. The mass production system changed the United States, they catapulted them into the industrial people of the world, 00:14:00they-- everybody was following, you know, the mass production system that was built by-- started by Henry Ford.

And then came the lean production system and that's what affected A.O. Smith and there's a the reason that these large corporations were going out of business, they were emerging, they were going overseas. And it was what started the globalization was a fellow by the name of Eiji Toyoda in Japan put together what they called a lean production system.

And what that system does and it took over the small car business in this country and what that system does is it puts-- it took part of the craft 00:15:00production system and part of the mass production system, OK. And split it up so that they were doing things faster, they would-- there was better quality and as a consequence, all of these corporations who had adopted the mass production system no longer could compete with the lean production system.

And that's why they were going overseas, they were, they were going-- you know, they were going out of business and that's what happened to A.O. Smith. And A.O. Smith tried to adapt themselves to the lean production system, so they had some people coming over from Japan and they had a-- and I felt that what we needed to do was to change, you know, what we were doing. And my thinking was is that how do I keep my people working, OK, because we had-- the wages we had 00:16:00gotten the best wages, we had a large-- we had maybe 35% of African Americans and they were trained and they had a meaningful job and they could send their kids to school, they could buy homes and my thinking was is how do I keep this going as long as possible.

And, you know, I'm not clairvoyance so I couldn't see, you know, what was coming, I didn't know that the market place was going to decide, you know, whatever hell happen to the market place and that, what actually happened, but the corporation wanted to stay in business too, OK, because, you know, they were the largest manufacturer of automobile and truck frames in the world and they 00:17:00were looking for a way to transform the mass production system into the lean production system, but that was difficult because if you've ever been to the A.O. Smith, they had-- they had systems in there, they had steel projects in there that were 50 feet deep, you know, and how do you, how do you dig those out and transport them around so, you know, they were trying to do the best they could to hang on.

But they were gradually, gradually because the automobile industry was going to-- they were no longer using frames and so A.O. Smith slowly was going from an automobile frame to the truck frames and that's what they based-- they wind up doing is, you know, making a truck frames. But that we were because, you know, 00:18:00A.O. Smith and a number of corporations were hiring blacks before World War II, you know, it used to be-- and A.O. Smith was smack dab in the black neighborhood, you know, we could walk to work.

And so that-- you know, this was God-- this was God sent. And so the only thing that I had to do was to make sure that all of these classifications were open, you know, to the brothers and sisters, you know, and I was dedicated to doing that, you know. And that's what I did, in fact we had 300 women in the clerical area. When I took-- when I became president it was lily-white, all right and we changed all of that, you know, and some of the sisters, they have some sisters 00:19:00and they were working down on some material in the basement and we changed all of that.

And so that if you were qualified, in any job didn't make any difference what it was that was in our classification, you had an opportunity to do that and you know, the brothers from A.O. Smith they was in Cadillacs, they was, you know, and they was sending their kids to school and you know, and so it was devastating when the lean production started taking over the mass production because that meant what we had been doing, we had to change.

And so that's what I got into is how do we change, how do we transfer from mass production to lean production and we started-- you see because my thinking was 00:20:00is that, I don't give a damn if you gonna leave next week. I want to be sitting at the table. I don't want you to call me on the phone and say "Guess what, we’re shutting down." So I always wanted to be at the table, OK.

And so and I had that in every negotiation because I negotiated every contract from 72 to when I left in ‘93. And in very contract I wanted to be at the table with the board of directors-- I wanted to be sitting at that table because if we going to be shut down I want to know it so I can prepare on my people, you know that was always in the back of my head.

And because they knew I understood what was going on in the world versus the other unions who didn't have a clue. They wanted me to sit on the board but 00:21:00they couldn’t afford to do that in case I lost an election and then they had to put somebody else on the board who didn't know what was going on and you know, so but we did-- they-- I was able to-- I told them in negotiations.

What you got to do is because all we did was come to work. We did, you know, what we were told and we went home. And so I told the company that you've got to train us-- you've got to teach us everything about the business, you know. How you buy steel who you buying it from. We wanted to know everything about the business because, you know, and I got-- and I got some blow back from that because they're saying "Hey you're supposed to be militant", you know, well-- and I've got some articles in here that talks about, you know, what I'm saying 00:22:00to people who saying well we'll go-- militant and the unemployment line, you know, that didn't make sense to me, OK because I-- listen these brothers, you know, since slavery have been denied jobs, all right and now all of a sudden they got meaningful jobs they're making money and getting back in the main stream, OK.

And they got something to send their kids to school because that's our problem now is that we don't have a foundation-- once we get laid off, you know boom we had-- we got a problem because we know we have don't foundation. We don't own our homes-- we don't, you know. And so this was changing, you know, these brothers were owning a homes and they're sending their kids to school and then all of a sudden this came in and I trying to hold it off as long as I could and 00:23:00so that's why I got together with the company and I remember they came to me and said that this automobile manufacturing in Canada had out bid them. And so they were going to have to lay off 750 of my members, OK.

Unless, unless we could see a way to give them some concessions, OK. Now I'm militant-- I am not about to give up nothing that we've already got, OK? If you going in to close, close we're not giving you back nothing. You don't need a union to give back money, OK? And so, you know, I thought about this and I thought about this and then I said, you know, I said listen when the 00:24:00corporations need money, what do they do?

They go to the bank and they say, "Loan me some money, you know and I'll pay it back on such and such." And so that's how they settled that. What they wanted was is for us to forego our cost of living for three months, OK? And so I said "OK, we will if we've got a guarantee that on the certain day you're going to pay us all of that money back. OK?"

And they said "OK." Well after, you know, a lot of back and forth they would-- and so we kept our 750 people, you know. But we never, never no concessions, no, no. I didn't believed in concessions. But I did believed in being able to sit at the table, we needed to sit at the table and that's why we had this labor 00:25:00management meetings so that we can find out what was going on and they did teach us about the business. So we knew as much about the business as a supervisor.

But what I didn't-- wasn't thinking about far enough it was that the market control is everything. And so there was no way that A.O. Smith was going to be able to stay in business because as I was telling him that when I took-- when I became president, the average rate, the average rate wage was $4.45, OK-- that was in 1972.

And when I left in 1993, 1993 the average wage was $19.65 in ‘93. This is 2015 and they're fighting over 10, $15, OK. So that-- and I'm saying average. 00:26:00We have some brothers who often claim of, you know, and they're $25-26 an hour. So that’s a meaning-- meaningful money. OK, so I thought with my obligation that, you know, I got to keep them, you know, as long as I could.

And so that was always-- but even if the market is going to-- if even if we're going out of business in negotiation. I said "I want two years notice." If you’re going to go, two years notice. So that we can prepare-- I can prepare those people that you know, to start going other places and so we did. We had successful labor management, meaning the chairman of the board would come out and meet with me, you know, and I got-- I've got all kinds of articles with me.

Clayborn Benson: And tell us about those meetings? Tell us about those meetings?

Paul Blackman: The meetings that—with the board, is that they were explaining of the situation and what they were up against.

Clayborn Benson: The economy.

Paul Blackman: Yeah, for example steel. They were making steel in Korea and, you know, and so that it was no longer that the company could no longer compete buying steel here when they were making steel in Korea and selling it cheaper, OK?

And so they had to make arrangements to get steel from where ever, you know, was the less costly. And so there was these discussions that we were a part of. 00:28:00Because before I was allowed to sit into these meetings anytime the company wanted to-- felt that they had to cut, it was always labor, you know, labor was always a brunt of the reductions until I got a change to set on the board, OK.

And then for example, since we are learning how to do everything, we don't need supervisors anymore OK?

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: So if you want to cut, you know, cut the people that the supervisors, the management folks, you know, we wanted that-- if you're making reductions, we wanted those reductions to start at the top and come on down. 00:29:00And we were able to do that with, you know, the labor management kinds of relations that we had going on.

Clayborn Benson: So you say you ended in ‘93, so ‘91, ‘90 did they-- that the message begin to come to you or bring your attention to that the company no longer was going to be in existence or they were running in some difficult times because of the economy.

Paul Blackman: Well we knew that they were running in a difficult times. We knew that and--

Clayborn Benson: And what were the signs that they exhibit?

Paul Blackman: The business, you know, the big three. For example when a took them out on strike and this how I this is how I became so powerful it was really-- and I didn't really didn't have a clue except that I was just miliotant, you know, I was black and I was mad and you were white and, you know. We took them out on strike and we came from three days shutting down Ford, 00:30:00General Motors and Chrysler.

Because we were making all of their--

Clayborn Benson: Frames.

Paul Blackman: Frames OK. That strike they stopped that. They never gave, never gave all of their business to one company anymore.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: After that strike, OK. They sent mediators in from Washington DC to settle that strike. You go in and settle that strike in a hurry. As a consequence we got everything we wanted, everything.

Clayborn Benson: Wow.

Paul Blackman: We wanted, everything we wanted. Because what had happen earlier-- when I was, when first elected there were six other unions, OK. And the craft unions were the-- well they they're smart, you know, the craft and you're in an industrial union you're the dummies. So the craft unions run all the negotiations and even though we had the largest we were the largest 00:31:00membership we were sitting in the back.

I put a stop that in a hurry uh-uh the tail is not going to wag the dog. And they were really shocked. They were really shocked in fact when I'm took them on a strip strike they fired Bowman . And I think they fired Bowman because they were--

Clayborn Benson: And Bowman was who?

Paul Blackman: Bowman was the Chief Negotiator for the company.

Clayborn Benson: OK all right.

Paul Blackman: And after the strike they quietly got rid of him. But--

Clayborn Benson: You're the Union President?

Paul Blackman: Yeah. And I'm-- and I did all the-- negotiated all the contracts from ‘72 to ‘93 every contract. And that's why that wage, you know, thing was so high-- as result that after I retired NorQuest appointed me Chief Negotiator for the City of Milwaukee but that's another story. But--

Clayborn Benson: So when I look at 19-- 1990 when you got the idea that things were begging into go down hill for the company the economy is bellying up.

Paul Blackman: Yeah.

Clayborn Benson: Well let's put the put the strike piece aside.

Paul Blackman: OK.

Clayborn Benson: Just look at the economy is beginning to belly up and A.O. Smith is no longer able to address their financial needs. And so are you in the negotiations in that time period 1990?

Paul Blackman: Oh yes, oh yes.

Clayborn Benson: OK and so you're saying to yourself that we've been doing good so far why can't we continue?

Paul Blackman: Yes and here's where that-- here's-- the other thing that I'm saying is that I'm looking at-- you see-- can we make a profit, OK. We'll do everything we can to see that you make a profit but then we had to sit down at 00:33:00the table and see how we cut that profit up, OK. So I'm saying to them because I know that they have a difficulty competing.

All right, and so I'm not going to gut you even though I've got the power to do that, you know. I'm not going to gut you if instead of 6% and 7% we'll take 2% we'll 3%. And that's the kind of negotiating we were doing in the 90s.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: OK.

Clayborn Benson: All right.

Paul Blackman: Because we knew that they were having problems. And I know in my head that it's going to be difficult for them to stay in business. Because the Japanese was taking over the automobile business.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: You know, and the automobile which is the largest manufacturer of-- in the world is automobile. Everything is around automobile, OK. And that's what we did we made frames for the automobile. And Japan had taken over the small car market. You know, they just come in and just taken that over. And so that we were in strain and Ford was trying to cope and General Motors was the last one to recognize that there was a problem.

And Chrysler was trying to sell overseas and it--

Clayborn Benson: And what was-- what was your conversations were like with the-- the President of the company? Or is he-- what was their-- your conversations like?

Paul Blackman: My conversations was, is that we were in this together. And I 00:35:00wanted them to be truthful with me in terms of what the future was like. Because I was a realist but I wanted-- I didn't want any two week notices.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: I want a two year notice. And I know that the corporation is they think two or three years ahead. Sometimes they think in five years ahead OK. And I wanted to be a part of that five year plan that they were having.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: So that I could prepare my membership for that.

Clayborn Benson: So two years, two years prior to. So they're letting you know two years ahead.

Paul Blackman: Oh I mean yeah--

Clayborn Benson: You know, you know two years ahead?

Paul Blackman: Yes, yes I--

Clayborn Benson: So you are able to look at pensions? And did every employee get a pension?

Paul Blackman: Oh yes. Oh yeah. Let me tell you--

Clayborn Benson: Every employee?

Paul Blackman: Yes. Everyone we had solid-- we have solid-- that contract, that contract was solid. And let me tell you something else. Nobody, nobody anybody 00:36:00that got hired at A.O. Smith your seniority continued regardless to where you are working or not. And nobody in the country ahead that kind of contract. OK. Our pensions were solid OK.

And that's what we looked at as our that pension. So pension was solid. In fact they could have been better than they were but I couldn't get the membership to follow me because they wanted their money now. You know when you're when you're talking about money now and put your money away for the, you know, they weren't looking that far ahead.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: OK. And so I had difficulty increasing the pension, you know, to where it should be. But to tell you what happened early on and one reason we 00:37:00went on strike is that when the crafts were negotiating they gave up a 2% pension increase. Just gave it up. They gave up our cost of living. That's the reason I went on a strike, you know.

Clayborn Benson: But you didn't go on a strike two years prior to closing.

Paul Blackman: Oh no, no went on strike in 74.

Clayborn Benson: In 74?

Paul Blackman: Oh yeah 74.

Clayborn Benson: Well but so by then-- I'm thinking closing. I'm thinking A.O. Smith closing what year did they close?

Paul Blackman: They closed in 97 I was gone.

Clayborn Benson: In 97?

Paul Blackman: Yeah I was gone.

Clayborn Benson: So did they then begin to break down from year to year cutback and those kinds of things lay people off--

Paul Blackman: Oh yes. Oh yes.

Clayborn Benson: -- and all that kind of stuff. What is that like--

Paul Blackman: Oh yes.

Clayborn Benson: -- that period of transition?

Paul Blackman: Yes. It was devastating. It was devastating and that we had 6000 members in our union, OK. And close to the 90s we were down to 3000. The 00:38:00only thing that kept us going was the fact that those people could be called back. They still had jobs.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: All right they still had jobs. And so my thinking was is that if we were still able to compete with the private because A.O. Smith was notorious for having a good design, all right. And that's why they were so popular with the big three because of their engineering prowess.

Clayborn Benson: Yeah.

Paul Blackman: OK. And so I thought that if we could do that then we could go to share the market. And those people-- some of those people could come back.

Clayborn Benson: But the economy won't-- the economy won't let you.

Paul Blackman: Yeah that was my thinking then. But the economy wouldn't-- that wasn't going to happen..

Clayborn Benson: They wouldn't let you at all.

Paul Blackman: No.

Clayborn Benson: How did they decide that they were going to not be on business no more? I mean the economy decided that or they did just simply--

Paul Blackman: Oh yeah the market place. The market place.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: The market place. Because you see what happened was, is Frederick Taylor, who was an Industrial Engineer broke up the class system into little bitty parts. You know if you were-- if you were a journeyman, you know, and you were working on putting a piece together all day long. Well Frederick he came in and cut that job up into four or five pieces so he could bring somebody in like him and teach him how to do this little part in five days.

And all he had to do is do this and put it on the assembly line. And the assembly line would run to what they called a match fits, they'd put all these piece of welding and boom you got it.

Clayborn Benson: OK

Paul Blackman: OK. And so that--

Clayborn Benson: Did he work for the company? He worked for it?

Paul Blackman: No, no, no, no he was--

Clayborn Benson: He was just at the center?

Paul Blackman: He worked for a lot of companies.

Clayborn Benson: Companies OK.

Paul Blackman: OK.

Clayborn Benson: And so he was brought in to teach A.O. Smith

Paul Blackman: That's right, he was brought it in to break up because he would come out and watch to see how long it would take you to do something. OK, so he was timing what you were doing, all right. So he could put all that down and so that they could get the most work-- they were trying to find how we can get the most work out of one person, all right. But the lean production system just 00:41:00ruined it, just ruined everything, they ruined everything, they ruined everything.

Clayborn Benson: So now, 97 the plant is closing well 95, 96...

Paul Blackman: Ninety seven

Clayborn Benson: Ninety five, right?

Paul Blackman: Ninety seven is when A.O. Smith sold the plant tower.

Clayborn Benson: Tower, OK. But-- so some employees stayed on but majority of those employees left 97 or-- and the breakdown from 92 when you-- 93 when you left all the way to 97--

Paul Blackman: Yeah

Clayborn Benson: The numbers begin to decrease.

Paul Blackman: That's right.

Clayborn Benson: So we're looking at-- so where there drinking problems, was the housing problems, were the neighborhood businesses affected by any of this

Paul Blackman: Of course, of course. You see, you've got a situation where 00:42:00these people-- been in the 60s, the late 60s. 70s and the early part of the 80s has substantial jobs, OK. And as they begin to lay off-- and then you had drug war that entered into it and we had all kinds of problems with drugs, you know, at--

Clayborn Benson: At the plant?

Paul Blackman: Yeah in the plant

Clayborn Benson: Employees would bring drugs or use drugs on the plant?

Paul Blackman: Yeah, yes. Sell them.

Clayborn Benson: My goodness

Paul Blackman: Sell them. We had employees that were-- just strung out on drugs, but we have the best insurance in the world. And so all they had to do was, you know, go to rehab, you know, and then come back to work, because we 00:43:00didn't fire anybody. OK, I wouldn't let them, you know, so--

Clayborn Benson: Were they doing it because of the down surge in the company or them being possibly laid off or fired?

Paul Blackman: No, no, no, no, no, we're talking about drug dealers who are working everyday. But drugs was, you know, just running rapid, you know, in our neighborhood during that period of time, OK. And the company was after me, you know, to clean that up but I'm-- I didn't want any part of that to sent my brothers to jail, you know, for drugs.

I didn't want a part of that, OK.

Clayborn Benson: But are we saying that this is because of the closings or the lay offs? Or is it just because it's just drugs in general for employee?

Paul Blackman: Well the drugs were brought into the neighborhood, OK.

Clayborn Benson: All right

Paul Blackman: And they were brought in-- the drug war started in 82. And we had a portion of a membership who got caught up into that

Clayborn Benson: OK All right

Paul Blackman: It had nothing to do with--

Clayborn Benson: Closing.

Paul Blackman: -- with closing our jobs, or the lack of jobs at that point

Clayborn Benson: OK

Paul Blackman: All right

Clayborn Benson: OK

Paul Blackman: Where it became devastating, is when all of our members starting to be laying off

Clayborn Benson: Go.

Paul Blackman: OK.

Clayborn Benson: Yeah.

Paul Blackman: And then they were really into drugs, and then drugs to jail and the, you know.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: And that's how I started to building up

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: OK.

Clayborn Benson: Alcohol?

Paul Blackman: Alcohol was not a big problem. All right, listen we have buddies who were alcoholics came to work every day. Let me tell you something and if 00:45:00you ever to talk to anybody that’s worked at A.O. Smith. At A.O. Smith because of the system that I had set up, you had to fire yourself so that, you had to fire yourself.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: Because they don't want to fire somebody it would have to come through me.

Clayborn Benson: And you were wouldn’t let them?

Paul Blackman: No, you got to prove it?

Clayborn Benson: So what I understand, that you are the-- I understand that Mr. Blackman, you are the best union director there were was. There is no question about that. We are talking about plant closing.

Paul Blackman: I know what you're talking about plant closing.

Clayborn Benson: And that's what we need, is the plant closing. The impact of plant closing.

Paul Blackman: Yeah, here's what I was telling your brother because-- and he was into that and he'd explained that to me. I was telling him that when the plant close

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: OK.

Clayborn Benson: But you knew of some situations.

Paul Blackman: Oh I knew that the plant was eventually going to close OK and--

Clayborn Benson: Why did you leave so early?

Paul Blackman: Leave so early .

Clayborn Benson: Why?

Paul Blackman: Well--

Clayborn Benson: Isn't that a good question? .

Paul Blackman: That is a good question. There were other things I wanted to do, I thought that I had done all I could do at Smith OK. And I want it to go into-- I want to start a consulting firm, OK. And I wanted to start helping different unions, you know, getting their foot-- and get an understanding and tell-- and showing them what they needed to do and how they need to research so 00:47:00that they could so that they could deal with what was coming forth, you know.

And that was one of the main reasons that--

Clayborn Benson: You didn't see the writing on the wall.

Paul Blackman: Oh I I knew that writing was on the wall.

Clayborn Benson: So let's get back to the subject here.

Paul Blackman: There was no--

Clayborn Benson: Plant closing.

Paul Blackman: There was no way--

Clayborn Benson: Plant closing.

Paul Blackman: OK.

Clayborn Benson: How did that impact? How did that impact?

Paul Blackman: It devastated the community.

Clayborn Benson: How?

Paul Blackman: It took away their livelihood, you've now got-- you've got-- you've now got a community, who no longer has a way of making a living. And what I tried to do-- one of the things I'd tried to do was, help the government set a training facility.

So that those members that were laid off that had look like there's a possibility that they weren't coming back even though they could, if they called them back, they have to, you know, find another work. Because the handwriting was on the wall, that this kind of plant doing with-- unless they could really turnover and become completely lean--

Clayborn Benson: Well, they didn’t turn over.

Paul Blackman: No.

Clayborn Benson: And it didn't stay alive, it died?

Paul Blackman: No, right, right.

Clayborn Benson: And because of that, college students had to leave college, people couldn't pay insurance, people got even more in drugs, alcohol, housing 00:49:00problem, the neighborhood around A.O. Smith and others in poor district area, businesses when out of business, all of that and much, much more occurred. And we're looking for you to share, what knowledge you have about those things in which I have just mentioned.

Paul Blackman: OK and let me tell you, let me tell you the reason for that. Is that more than any other city-- more than any other city. The majority of young brothers and sisters that worked into this city, worked in manufacturing.

Clayborn Benson: That's true.

Paul Blackman: OK.

Clayborn Benson: That's true.

Paul Blackman: Not like in the other cities where they would, you know, there was-- they worked in manufacturing. When manufacturing no longer was available, 00:50:00there was nothing else for them to do. The manufacturing that was left or that was coming in was in the suburbs. And unless you had transportation, you had an ordeal, you couldn't get to that.

And you know that even if you got a job out there they were not going to welcome you with open arms if you want to rent-- you know, some place to stay out there. So you were where you were before World War II, stuck in this community with no job, no hope.

You were going-- our kids were going from school to prison. It was a hopeless 00:51:00situation because we put all of our eggs in the manufacturing basket.

Clayborn Benson: It's true.

Paul Blackman: And the little work that I tried to get the UAW and other unions to do was to setup training you know. And the little training that they brought in with computers and, you know, and what happened to that? All the computer work went to the Philippines and went to India and, you know. So they had nothing.

Clayborn Benson: Well it's clear that the NorQuest Administration bring in the black grant money spend that money down in the third ward and build up that area.

Paul Blackman: Yes.

Clayborn Benson: And they also retook many of their employees but not A.O. Smith 00:52:00of course but many employees through new jobs, new vocations in that third ward with those many manufactures. The universities open up their doors UWM, MATC, private institutions open up. Retool especially the white employee based. They didn't do that for black employees.

Paul Blackman: Yes.

Clayborn Benson: They did not do that.

Paul Blackman: Yes.

Clayborn Benson: We created-- we created OIC but they let OIC die.

Paul Blackman: Yes.

Clayborn Benson: What did the black community-- how did it suffer and what was the impact that, that plant closing have on African Americans?

Paul Blackman: Right, you know what the impact was. You know, what the impact was. Because we were kept out and left out of everything. And then we've got-- when I look at the Marc Levines in 2010.

Clayborn Benson: Like an employment list?

Paul Blackman: That's right.

Clayborn Benson: Report.

Paul Blackman: The 84, 245 black males unemployed are in jail.

Clayborn Benson: Yes sir. Yes sir. Correct. Yes.

Paul Blackman: Now I--

Clayborn Benson: Walk down the street sir.

Paul Blackman: That's right. Right, now I go down to the detention center and those young black males the last time I was there about the guy is over their recreation he calls me and I go and talked to them about jobs, OK. About meaningful jobs I talked to them about skill trades. That's what I talked to the about. Because that's the only meaningful job that you can get f you can get it and then they want you in the trades.

All right. But I talked to them and I'm saying that what you need to do is 00:54:00because I know you need a job right away. But you need to keep your eye on the price. And the price is a meaningful job. And if you under the trade you become a plumber, an electrician. You can work for somebody else or you can work for yourself. That's what you need to do. And I know that Holy Grail is college, OK.

But college is not free. And you need money to go to college. You need a foundation and I'm saying that your foundation is in the trades. That's where your foundation is. And that's what I talked to these young gentlemen in the detention center when they're coming out. And I said I'll show you how to apply because what you need is you need a driver's license which is another big 00:55:00problem that we've got.

Driver's license.

Clayborn Benson: It is a problem, yeah.

Paul Blackman: OK.

Clayborn Benson: It is a problem.

Paul Blackman: Because do you realize that we've only got 9% of our young people who are eligible to drive. That take drivers’ ed, because they can't afford it. So there's 92% of our young people who were eligible to drive that they're not taking drivers’ ed. And guess what? They're driving.

Clayborn Benson: And it is true.

Paul Blackman: And guess who knows it the police.

Clayborn Benson: Mr. Blackman?

Paul Blackman: Yes.

Clayborn Benson: In that period of time between 93 and 97 has it been young people come to you or men come to you say "I'm about to lose my house, Mr. Blackman. I need assistance." "My daughter is being kicked out of college because I cannot make their payment." "Mr. Blackman, I am about to go to jail because I've been stealing." Have those kind of problems begin to come to you 00:56:00or being aware and you being the leader of that Union and people respecting you.

Paul Blackman: Nobody came to me with those kinds of problems before I left. It was after I was gone.

Clayborn Benson: So it was after you're gone?

Paul Blackman: After I was gone.

Clayborn Benson: Did they come to you?

Paul Blackman: Yeah after I was gone.

Clayborn Benson: Share some of those with us.

Paul Blackman: Well and I have it recall them because, you know, there were so many. Because they call me now but they call me now believe it or not. They were, you know, they were devastating. And there was no answer, you know, for these young men because you know when you need help-- And this is what I say all 00:57:00the time.

When you need help you need it now. You know, not next month not next-- you know, I can't sit down and tells you about-- now you do this here you do that in three to four months. Because they need it now, OK. How do you get assistance how do you get help now? And so what I tried to do is to get them to jobs like-- if they've got a license let them drive a bus or get them some kind of service job, you know, to tie them over OK.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: And hook them up with the-- because we've got 200 black attorneys in this city. If you believe it or not. And I can't get one not one to commit 00:58:00to some pro bono work in the criminal justice system. Not one.

Clayborn Benson: So you've got people who have-- are in jail because of doing illegal things? And can they definitely tie that to not being able to work?

Paul Blackman: Listen we have got generations and generations and generations and generations of families who have never been out of poverty. Never. Never been out of poverty. And I'm from the hood in Chicago and you-- there are no jobs what do you do? You got some kind of hustle.

And nine times out of 10 it ain't legal.

Clayborn Benson: I have a question that I'm actually-- based of everything I've 00:59:00heard from you tell it like, people-- black people were out of jobs and stuff like that and feeling hopeless, like feels trapped. It counts like as though to me with the government and stuff. Because they know this going on and they have programs. I know the manufacturing business was hot back then and stuff like that and since race was prevalent back then, do you believe that serve as a stigma for this happening and the manufacturing business is hot so the government could have programs to help people get inside the technician field and computers.

Because even though it had technology to do these things for the humans, they still need him as the program director like that, so they could have a program for African Americans, specifically to have the bounce back into the industry.

Paul Blackman: I'm not aware of the government-- well the government has announced a lot of programs that have been not helpful to black people for a lot 01:00:00of reasons. OK. Number one, if in order to get to work you got to have some kind of transportation.

We have not been able-- and this is why I'm so pissed off with, you know, political people. Because there's only two ways that things changed that you can change things. And that's through public policy. And the legislators are in control of that. And that's why when you come to me at NAACP, you're going to get a different story because I'm at the end game.

I don't want to hear about research and then I don't want to hear about data and 01:01:00I know that. I know where we are. I know what we need. We need somebody to change these policies that are devastating us. And the only people that can do that are our legislators OK. The Voting Rights Act. The Civil Rights Act. Those are public policies that would change through legislation.

That's the only way anything is going to changed. So I don't want to sit in a whole lot of Kumbaya meetings and you know walking down the yellow brick road because-- and we're looking at this point and we just devastated because it's happening and you know, that's status quo stuff.

Jameel Russell: You also said earlier that you left before A.O. Smith shut down and then right after that people start to come to you asking you what they're going to do about their house and stuff like that. Do you believe if you were to stay there longer just a little bit longer you could help them out?

Paul Blackman: Oh yeah, it would been have different.

Jameel Russell: How?

Paul Blackman: It would been have different. Because number one when I left the union started giving up things that we have negotiated. OK. The first thing that Tower went after was--

Clayborn Benson: But, you know, what you talked in speculations it really doesn't matter whether he left or early or left at the same you left in ‘93.

Paul Blackman: Yeah he asked me.

Clayborn Benson: And so I know that and but it doesn't matter. What matters is that black folks suffer through unemployment, through kids in college, through drinking and through driving. Through the whole range of things that we-- incarceration. And they-- and just walk down the street, you see them today. And so they're suffering because of this economy changed and I just told you what the NorQuest administration put all of their money the federal grants $16 million to the third ward.

And White institutions retooling Europeans and UWM, MATC and the such and what-- and they gave us A.O. Smith-- OIC and they cut that out.

Paul Blackman: Yeah.

Clayborn Benson: And so I'm-- we're just simply asking you what do you-- what examples-- and you're telling me now they're coming to you now. I'm asking you for some specific follow ups of those people who've come to you.

Paul Blackman: Well there is nothing. There is nothing for them. Zip.

Clayborn Benson: OK.

Paul Blackman: Zip O.

Clayborn Benson: Give me and just tell me-- let's take two or three of them. And John Smith came to me because of this. Or Sally came to me because of this. Just give me three. That you've heard in the last year of people who have come to you because of a whole range of problems they have. Just please tell me.

Paul Blackman: As it relates to work?

Clayborn Benson: Unemployment. Because that's what we’re talking about, plant closing.

Paul Blackman: All right. You know I've I hear complaints almost every week. 01:04:00And I’d have to, you know, think about and pick out some specifics that would make your point OK. But that's what people-- that's and you know I'm at the NAACP.

Clayborn Benson: Right, right.

Paul Blackman: And I'm there on Tuesdays and they're in there with, you know, the kinds of problems that, you know--

Clayborn Benson: What did they say?

Paul Blackman: That well It's the discrimination on the job and then terminated. A lady just called me just before I came in here. She wanted to be 01:05:00a film director, OK. And she said that at MATC they didn't have what she needed so she went to some school in Illinois, Portland or something in Illinois.

And they just discriminated and they just discriminated against her. They did, you know, just awful and so I call the people and I had her file a claim to civil rights people, the US Department of Education and in fact she just called me. So that she's hung up now because she said that at MATC they didn't-- they don't have, you know, what she needs and, you know, in order to go to school.

I had a brother that just got terminated from-- and I can't remember where in hell he was working because he was wearing a-- he's a Muslim, OK. And they told him that he can't wear this and then one word led to another and they terminate him. So his out of a job.

I had this brother--that came to me Tuesday. He was-- well he had just come back, but he drove a bus. And he drove a bus for the school on-- the Language 01:07:00School it's on-- Is it Berlin or Center?

Paul Blackman: -- it is on Center, 84th and 7th and so-- and one of he white kids called him a nigger, OK. And so he reported it to the principal and supervisor and they put the kid off the bus. But then later on the bus people called him in and told him that they we're going to assign him to another bus because this white kid had to ride this bus.

So now he's losing money and, you know, so I called the principal and he said they don't call me back, I haven't heard from them yet. So I'm getting the 01:08:00number of terminations just-- but they are-- their jobs that--

-- they're not permanent anyway, you know, they're just temporary jobs.

Clayborn Benson: If they were regular permanent jobs at some point? Do you know?

Paul Blackman: Well, I would say no because I'm not aware of any place that you can get permanent jobs. I know you can't in manufacturing and there maybe some permanent service jobs but you know. And I guess they're permanent as you're 01:09:00willing to take whatever it is they give you and you know, OK.

Jameel Russell: Yeah it sound like to me that they was doing-- the African Americans was just doing their job correctly and sufficiently but racism and religious views of people and what they can't tolerate, religion and probably misogynistic stuff, served as-- hindered them from continuing their job and stuff. So that's what it sound like to me so--

Paul Blackman: Yeah. You see, we got to a couple of situations here. Let's say that everybody was trained.

Jameel Russell: Trained?

Paul Blackman: Trained to do some kind of work. We don't have enough jobs for those people in Milwaukee. We've no jobs here. There are no jobs here. There 01:10:00are only so many service jobs.

Clayborn Benson: It's true. So with that closing of the manufacturing jobs.

Paul Blackman: Yeah, well-- you know unless, unless we've got some people that are creative, you know, that can put together their own jobs systems and you know.

Clayborn Benson: Yeah, yeah.

Paul Blackman: No jobs here. So we have got a serious situation in this city. And it's going to take people like you and me and some other people who are really concerned about the situation to sit down and talk about how we are going 01:11:00to confront it.

Clayborn Benson: It's true.

Paul Blackman: Because I-- you know, you talked about Norquist, you know, Barrett's not much better.

Clayborn Benson: Oh not at all. Not at all, sir. I totally agree with you with you. We're done sir, we're done.

Jameel Russell: Thank you for time.

Clayborn Benson: Not at all.

Paul Blackman: Yeah, yeah.