Interview with Robert Mays, July 14, 2015, Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Temeka Williams: Alright. Today's date is July 14th, 2015. I don't have the time. I probably left my phone downstairs. Somewhere between 10 and 12 don't really know right now, and I'm Temeka Williams, the interviewer, and the oral historian is Robert Mays and he is the former co-founder and owner of United Realty. A current business owner of Mays Realty now.

OK. And this project is titled Oral Histories on Plant Closings in Milwaukee. So, I want to make sure I actually I understood because I walked in in the middle. Did you actually grow up in Milwaukee though or you grew up in the South?

Robert Mays: I was born and raised in Milwaukee.

Temeka Williams: OK. So, we were talking about your family earlier from the south?

Robert Mays: Right.

Temeka Williams: OK. Well, since I didn't get to hear the interview that you had with Clayborn before, can you just tell me a little bit about your history 00:01:00here in Milwaukee?

Robert Mays: Well, I was born in 1929 here in Milwaukee and I went to school at Fourth Street, Roosevelt Junior High and Lincoln High School. I didn't graduate from Lincoln; I left Lincoln High School at the age of 16. I joined the military. Ran off. I joined the military and stayed there for three months and came back home because it was too much for me and I went to MATC and got my ED and I also went to Atlanta University to get my certificates for real estate management and at Cleveland College.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: And that's where I got my degree in property management. I got my certificate in property management.

Temeka Williams: OK. Why--

Robert Mays: I've been in real estate in-- since 1959.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: And I worked out to A.O. Smith in 1951 until 1969.

Temeka Williams: OK. So, did you work for A.O. Smith and do real estate at the same time?

Robert Mays: Well, I worked for A.O. Smith up until in 1959 is when I got my license.

Temeka Williams: For real estate?

Robert Mays: For real estate.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: And so I did real estate and worked at A.O. Smith until 1969.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: And then I left A.O. Smith and went full time with the real estate.

Temeka Williams: OK. Did you choose to leave A.O. Smith or were you laid off because of the plant closings?

Robert Mays: I was laid off several times, but I had left A.O. Smith because I 00:03:00was making more money on a sale-- in one sale in real estate than I would in a month working at A.O. Smith.

Temeka Williams: Wow.

Robert Mays: That didn't make sense to me, so that's why I quit.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: And went into real estate full time.

Temeka Williams: Was that typical, though? Because--

Robert Mays: Huh?

Temeka Williams: Was it typical for people to make more money leaving A.O. Smith? By leaving or was that unique to you?

Robert Mays: It depends on if you can sell any property, that's the thing.

Temeka Williams. OK.

Robert Mays: But, it's typical if you can sell property. At that time when we first start-- when I first started out, we were getting commission of $1200 for a listing at the minimum and I was making-- for a month, I was making about $1200 at the A.O. Smith, you know, for a month's work. So, it just felt better 00:04:00for me to not to have to get up early in the morning to go to work when I can get up at any time I want to and make my appointments at any time and make it more convenient for me and that's why I went into real estate full time.

Now, A.O. Smith was one of several factories that had employed lots of minorities. I worked-- when I was a teenager I worked out to Harness Figure which was a plant, but we had a lot of plants here and when they start closing down, things start getting rough for minorities because it was just more or less labor. We couldn't join the unions for specific jobs like when I was out to A.O. Smith, I asked one of the electrical engineers about getting an 00:05:00apprenticeship to join the electric union and he told me that they didn't hire blacks.

Said we don't allow blacks in our union. Same way with the plumbing. They didn't allow blacks in their union at that time. So, we were more or less dealing with the blacks that dealt with the welding, which was a good paying job, and assembly work. And then we did piece work, which was stamping out different items for cars and everything.

But, like I said, when they start closing down, it start hurting the housing industry and it just made it rough and they never did try and to help us or help minorities to get different jobs because they needed the education that they 00:06:00didn't have at that time and things just start getting rough.

Temeka Williams: Well, you were also-- based on the education you just told me about, you were pretty highly educated. What made you decide to go and pursue those different degrees and certificates?

Robert Mays: What made me decide to go into real estate was because I didn't like hard work.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: I never did like hard work.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: So, it was easier for me to transfer from one job to another and it was just-- I just thought that I could do better. Which I was very fortunate to do better, you know?

Temeka Williams: You said you got laid off several times, did you mean at A.O. Smith?

Robert Mays: Oh, yes. I got laid off a lot of times at A.O. Smith.

Temeka Williams: And you-- and they would call you back in?

Robert Mays: Oh yeah, they would call me back.

Temeka Williams: How did-- can you tell me more about how that worked?

Robert Mays: Well, what happens is when things start getting bad and like when Ford and General Motors and them go on a strike, parts and everything that we need to give to them, they don't have. So, they'd lay us off.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: Until things start getting better. In the automobile industry that A.O. Smith specialized in, if parts department someplace else up in the country go on a strike where they stop making parts, we couldn't do anything to deliver the goods, so they'd lay us off.

Temeka Williams: So, how did you handle each lay off?

Robert Mays: Well, I just handled it the best way I could.

Temeka Williams: What did you do to make sure that you still had income coming in?

Robert Mays: That's what made me go into real estate in 1959.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: Because of that.

Temeka Williams: So, when did you realize that these plant closings were going to continue to happen?

Robert Mays: Well, I didn't really realize that plant closing was going to start happening until after I had left A.O. Smith because it really didn't start happening until in the 80's when they start closing the plants.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: People like-- before A.O. Smith closed down, the people there that were still working was making over $1000 a week doing work. I mean that's how good it was at that time.

Temeka Williams: Which is why I was confused when you said you made more money selling--

Robert Mays: In '69.

Temeka Williams: In '69, OK.

Robert Mays: See, '69 and '83 is two different eras.

Temeka Williams: Right. It is. Fifteen-- 14, 15 years different.

Robert Mays: Two different eras so they started making more money.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: As things start getting better and yeah, they was making-- of course they put in a lot of overtime and that's something else I didn't like to do.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: I didn't like to put in overtime. I liked to work 40 hours a week and that was it. And that was one of the other reasons why I wasn't making more than a lot of the other people because I wasn't putting in a lot of overtime.

Temeka Williams: OK. And you said you noticed the plant closings after you had already left.

Robert Mays: Oh yeah, after I had left.

Temeka Williams: So, how did it impact your real estate business?

Robert Mays: Very bad. Very bad. Oh yeah. We went down. We was averaging a million dollars a year in commission--

Temeka Williams: Nice.

Robert Mays: When we first started in '75 until 1983 when Regan got into office and things started going down. We were making about 4-- 3 to 400,000.

Temeka Williams: That's a drastic difference.

Robert Mays: Yeah, which made it possible for a lot of sales associates to quit and find other jobs because they wasn't making any money. People wasn't buying houses. They couldn't afford them. So, that went on for quite a while.

Temeka Williams: What did you do to succeed though? Because you said United Realty survived through that period.

Robert Mays: We survived as far as the owners. We stayed, you know, and we were able to make a decent living off of selling property still.

Temeka Williams: But, what made it possible for you guys-- other than people leaving, what did you guys do differently to kind of fight your way through the recession and through the plant closings?

Robert Mays: I had real estate that I owned, but I was still selling property to people. Not as much as I was before, but enough to get by along with the real 00:11:00estate that I had and I had some investments where I made money off of my real estate.

Temeka Williams: OK. And when did you say you started United Realty for--

Robert Mays: 1975.

Temeka Williams: So-- and that was primarily for the African Americans to have an opportunity to sell?

Robert Mays: To compete with the white brokers.

Temeka Williams: So, when that-- when you first formed and you were trying to-- I mean I don't want to say you were trying to support your own community, like, that just needed to happen, right?

Robert Mays: That was something that needed to happen. Yeah. Being in competition with them so we can get our people better housing instead of steering them to different locations, wherever they wanted to purchase, we can send them there.

Temeka Williams: Right. So, how did things evolve as the economy kept changing? For your business as far as helping your community.

Robert Mays: Well, like I said, as far as our community-- as far as the black 00:12:00folks were concerned, the ones that could afford it, they get better housing in different areas. That's why we were able to go from just the inner city to the outlining areas.

Temeka Williams: Oh, you were able to accomplish that?

Robert Mays: Oh yeah. We were able to accomplish that.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: And lots of them, again, like I said, because of the competition that we were giving the white real estate brokers, they started hiring black real estate sales people.

Temeka Williams: How did you feel about that?

Robert Mays: No difference because we had more than we needed.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: You know, competition is competition. You know? And whoever gets the listing or sell the houses is the one that makes the money.

Temeka Williams: But was that your goal though to get black people more accepted within the white?

Robert Mays: Oh yeah. That was our purpose.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: Yeah.

Temeka Williams: And then after the economy went down and you were able to still make a living, were you ever able to achieve the same success that you had in kind of the--

Robert Mays: In the beginning? No.

Temeka Williams: OK. And why do you think that was?

Robert Mays: Because of the economy.

Temeka Williams: OK. It never fully recovered?

Robert Mays: It never really recovered. No.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: I mean right today it's still bad.

Temeka Williams: Yes.

Robert Mays: Yeah.

Temeka Williams: Well, what do you think could have been done differently to support anyone going through that?

Robert Mays: Well, what could have been done differently is that if we had better programs as far as the government was concerned to help implement some of the programs to make it better for people to earn a decent living.

Temeka Williams: Right.

Robert Mays: To create different jobs and it just never did happen.

Temeka Williams: Why didn't it happen?

Robert Mays: Well, they started going overseas.

Temeka Williams: Alright.

Robert Mays: The factories start moving to Mexico, wherever because the labor was cheap.

Temeka Williams: Right.

Robert Mays: And it never did recover back here in Milwaukee-- in the United States.

Temeka Williams: So, I mean I know you created this organization, the real estate organization, what else did you do to help your community? Especially because real estate is all about the communities you're building.

Robert Mays: Right.

Temeka Williams: So, what other types of things did you do to help prevent it from being like a total loss?

Robert Mays: There was really nothing that we could do .

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: I mean other than investments, you know, real estate was our thing.

Temeka Williams: OK. So, did you find yourself renting to people more than selling? Did that-- did there-- was there a shift?

Robert Mays: There was a shift in renting more so than selling, yes.

Temeka Williams: OK. And was that what-- what made people more open to still-- 00:15:00how do I want to ask this? One of the videos we watched, it seemed like it was the American dream to own your own home.

Robert Mays: It's always been.

Temeka Williams: So, how did people kind of adjust to this new reality that renting was their option?

Robert Mays: Well, they had to. I mean it was something they were forced to do because they couldn't afford or their credit was bad or they couldn't afford to buy a house. When you get laid off and you're surviving one paycheck to another and you get laid off, you can't pay the bills, so their credit started getting bad.

Temeka Williams: Right.

Robert Mays: So, now they put a clamp on us-- when I say us I'm talking about the minority-- to make it harder for them to try and advance in purchasing property where they don't do it for whites.

Temeka Williams: Right.

Robert Mays: They never did.

Temeka Williams: And what did you notice changed in people's mentalities as that 00:16:00was happening?

Robert Mays: That changed all-- ever since I was in real estate that they treated the whites much better than they treated the blacks.

Temeka Williams: But how did-- people in the community, how did they respond emotionally, mentally--

Robert Mays: They responded by having organizations to start suing.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: That's why they got this housing authority it was one of them and the group that was formed out of that-- I'm trying to think of the name of it. Fair housing. The fair housing program came out of that where they sued the insurance company, they sued the owners of real estate that refused to rent to blacks and the insurance company for redlining and we was able to get advanced into that field.

Temeka Williams: How grueling was that process, though?

Robert Mays: Well, it was probably-- it was fruitful as far as the blacks were 00:17:00concerned because we were able to overcome some of the obstacles that was confronting us in trying to get insurance.

Temeka Williams: But what was it like up until you achieved progress. How--

Robert Mays: It was hard. Yeah, it was hard. They didn't want to-- and when they gave them insurance, they charged them much more than they would the white folks.

Temeka Williams: And how did people respond to that?

Robert Mays: Well, like I said, they sued.

Temeka Williams: They kept fighting against it.

Robert Mays: We've been fighting all our lives trying to get fair treatment as others.

Temeka Williams: And I feel like that usually wears people down, so are there people that you know where they just, like, couldn't handle the fight any more?

Robert Mays: The ones that I know that started it kept on until they had some results. They never did back down.

Temeka Williams: OK. So, what made it easier for them to not back down, to not--

Robert Mays: Well, there was an idea that made it easier for them not to back down. This idea that they knew they were right what they were doing and they were going to continue until it was taken care of.

Temeka Williams: Where do you think that resilience comes from?

Robert Mays: It comes from us being set back all the time and we're sick and tired of it and when we know something is wrong, we going to fight for it until it betters itself.

Temeka Williams: Right. Well, I've been told that Milwaukee's changed in a lot of ways where the communities are deteriorating and, like you said, people can't afford homes. So, what do you think the impact was of the plant closings on creating those issues? Every city has that.

Robert Mays: Right.

Temeka Williams: Do you feel like the plant closings changed that in any way for Milwaukee?

Robert Mays: Plant closing caused a lot of businesses-- black businesses-- to 00:19:00fold where they couldn't hire black help. Whenever the plant closed and you take a bunch of people that is used to working and making decent money and now they're not making anything and depending on unemployment, which is very low, they couldn't afford anything, so it just made it impossible for a lot of our businesses to survive.

And they had to just fold.

Temeka Williams: And then what was their next option?

Robert Mays: I don't want to know what their next option was, other than trying to get a job.

Temeka Williams: Right. Well, just as far as people who did succeed, did they-- how much help did they give to the people that were still struggling?

Robert Mays: As far as I know, the ones that did succeed and still succeeding, they were able to give a lot of our people jobs.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: Like Wendy's. Burger King. McDonald's. I mean it wasn't high paying jobs, but it was jobs where they could probably survive during the time. Day care. You know, things of that sort.

Temeka Williams: What made you guys finally close down United Realty?

Robert Mays: Huh?

Temeka Williams: What made you guys finally--

Robert Mays: What made us decide to close down because, like I said, we had 32 sales associates, we had eight directors, and when we closed that was only two directors. And our age. I'm 86 and Mr. Brooks was 90.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: You know and--

Temeka Williams: That's why I was asking you why you didn't retire, so-- I 00:21:00didn't know how old you were, but I was like at some point don't you just want to relax and enjoy?

Robert Mays: And it just wasn't fruitful and we wasn't making any money. And so we decide just to close the shop.

Temeka Williams: Did you ever start doing education programs of your own to help people in the community?

Robert Mays: No.

Temeka Williams: No. OK. And you said you went to MATC and Atlanta University and Cleveland--

Robert Mays: Yeah. Cleveland.

Temeka Williams: So, what kept--

Robert Mays: That was for real estate.

Temeka Williams: OK, but what kept bringing you back to Milwaukee?

Robert Mays: I mean I never moved there, I just went there for classes.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: But I never left Milwaukee.

Temeka Williams: You didn't have to leave even when you were at Atlanta University?

Robert Mays: No. I didn't have to leave. I stayed a week.

Temeka Williams: Oh, OK.

Robert Mays: We had a week program there and then we had to go to Cleveland and stay two weeks.

Temeka Williams: Oh.

Robert Mays: To get my certificates for management-- property management.

Temeka Williams: OK. For some reason I thought it was more of an extended stay over there.

Robert Mays: No.

Temeka Williams: And what has really kept you in Milwaukee through all these ups and downs?

Robert Mays: Well, my family. I mean I had brothers and sisters here and then when I got married I had seven-- eight children.

Temeka Williams: Oh. OK. And are your children still here?

Robert Mays: Yeah. All of them are still here.

Temeka Williams: OK. And how did the changes in the city impact them, particularly with the plant closings?

Robert Mays: What, my children?

Temeka Williams: Your family in general.

Robert Mays: As far as my family, my daughter, my youngest daughter, she's went to-- not Spelman, but Atlanta.

Temeka Williams: Clark Atlanta?

Robert Mays: Clark Atlanta. She's a principle.

Temeka Williams: Here in Milwaukee?

Robert Mays: Here in Milwaukee.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: My other daughter, she had a house for unwed mothers. Yeah. And 00:23:00my other daughter, she's got her degree in accounting. My son, he's a painter. The other one, he's disabled.

Temeka Williams: Oh.

Robert Mays: And my other son that's living, he works for the county.

Temeka Williams: OK. So, everyone stayed here then?

Robert Mays: Everyone stayed here. The other two passed away.

Temeka Williams: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. So, what do you think it is about Milwaukee that keeps people fighting to stay here?

Robert Mays: You know, I'm going to tell you something. Milwaukee is a good city. I mean really and truly. In fact, I would say out of all the other cities that I have traveled through, I don't know of any one that would take the 00:24:00place of Milwaukee. Because when I go to Atlanta, which is fine, but it's too hot there in the summertime.

Down south and out west, there's earthquakes, snow-- sandstorms, tornadoes, and all these-- Milwaukee kind of don't have all of this problem. It seems as though it passes us by. Maybe because of Lake Michigan, I don't know. But, just like this weather that just passed.

Temeka Williams: Yes.

Robert Mays: I mean it was devastating and Milwaukee was able to kind of weather the storm. And I like Milwaukee.

Temeka Williams: I mean I like it, too.

Robert Mays: You like Milwaukee?

Temeka Williams: I do. Learning about all this has been really interesting and actually I didn't even ask you for any of your co-workers at A.O. Smith, did you 00:25:00end up keeping in touch with any of them or do you guys meet or, you know? Because I understand it's-- it feels kind of like a big little city here because everyone still knows one another.

Robert Mays: Right. Well, as far as the workers at A.O. Smith, no, I didn't keep up with any of them. Although, I see them every once in a while.

Temeka Williams: None of them came to work with you?

Robert Mays: No.

Temeka Williams: Oh.

Robert Mays: Now, actually there was two of them. That's right. It was two of them that came to work with us. Sure was. But, they gone.

Temeka Williams: What happened to them?

Robert Mays: Yeah. They're dead.

Temeka Williams: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

Robert Mays: See, a lot of my directors that we had have passed away.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: It's only two that left that are still living that left Milwaukee. One went to Chicago, she got married to another broker and the other one, he moved to Mississippi where he was from originally and opened up a rehab house-- business.

Temeka Williams: OK. So, you--

Robert Mays: The rest have passed away.

Temeka Williams: But you didn't actively recruit anyone that you used to work with?

Robert Mays: No. I tried to recruit my kids and they didn't want to go into real estate.

Temeka Williams: No? Did they ever tell you why since they knew that you had done--

Robert Mays: Yeah, they just didn't want-- wanted to go their own way.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: Yeah. The one that said he wanted to go into real estate, he came to my office. He was working out to Bradley Factory and he came to the office he said, Daddy, I think I'm going to go to school and take up real estate and come in the office with you. Well, he passed-- he was killed.

Temeka Williams: Oh. OK.

Robert Mays: That was my youngest son.

Temeka Williams: OK. I'm sorry to hear that.

Robert Mays: Yeah. One of them things.

Temeka Williams: Yeah. The baby. Do you think that the changes in the community were definitely impacted by the plant closings, though? I mean I know it happens in every city.

Robert Mays: Oh, yes. Definitely. Definitely. When you're out of a job and don't know what to do, especially young folks today, they don't live-- they don't think they're going to live to see 30 years. I mean it's devastating that they have this mindset on I'm going to try and get mine any way I can because I'm not going to be here too much longer. And so they don't even-- they don't love themselves like we used to love ourselves when we were growing up.

We loved ourselves and we loved the people that we associated with. It's not like that now.

Temeka Williams: But do you think that they were taught that mentality or how did that come about?

Robert Mays: It's because-- one reason's because of all this dope and stuff and young people having babies and can't take care of them. You know, when you get a mother that's 24 years old and is a grandmother, it's rough.

Temeka Williams: You're saying 24-year-old that is a grandmother?

Robert Mays: Yeah and it's a grandmother.

Temeka Williams: Wow.

Robert Mays: That's rough. You understand what it meant? She had her child young and didn't know how to take care of it and I mean it's just-- the love isn't there like it used to be.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: And it's sad. It really is. And then the white folks stopped us from chastising our children as they were growing up so they could kill them when they get grown. You see, when I-- with my children, when they were wrong, they were chastised. I believe in the Bible. Spoil the children-- spare the rod and spoil the child. Well, I believe in that and I spanked mine when they was doing wrong and if they had caught me or tried to make me stop, I would have told them at the-- I would have told the judge.

You know, I can spank them now so you don't kill them later.

Temeka Williams: Right.

Robert Mays: You know? And I wouldn't stop. And I was very fortunate none of them got in that kind of trouble.

Temeka Williams: And as far as the white community, it seems like they were still impacted by the plant closings, but do you feel they were hit--

Robert Mays: Oh, they were. They were. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. They had problems, too. In fact, they got more problems than we have, it's just that we don't know about it.

Temeka Williams: Oh, OK.

Robert Mays: Because they don't advertise it like they advertise us.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: Oh no. White folks got a lot of problems, honey. Believe me when I tell you. They got a lot of problems.

Temeka Williams: But, as far as-- has there ever been any movement to kind of get the two communities that were especially impacted by this-- I'm sure there's more than two communities, but to work together? Was there ever any success outside of your own real estate work?

Robert Mays: Not to my knowledge.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: Not to my knowledge.

Temeka Williams: What do you think they should be doing differently at this point now? If we know they're not giving the government programs.

Robert Mays: What they-- what-- let me see now. You mean to do better? If we were able to get our people and the white people together to come up with a formula to start educating our people for the jobs that's being created today, like in computers and all these other things that happening where I have no knowledge of whatsoever, but it's there, you know, and with new inventions, new jobs are being created and if we could get our people to go to school and take 00:31:00up the new jobs that's being created and get some jobs, some good paying jobs, things could change.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: But, it's hard to do that.

Temeka Williams: So, since you decided to keep your company going, what was the main motivating factor for you on that?

Robert Mays: Excuse me. Just to have something to do.

Temeka Williams: OK. So, you're working on your-- solo now or do you have other people working with you?

Robert Mays: No. Solo.

Temeka Williams: OK. Would you even want to train anyone else?

Robert Mays: Not really.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: In two more years, I'll probably give it up completely.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: Yeah. I'll be 88. That's enough.

Temeka Williams: So, are you doing it full time or part time?

Robert Mays: Well, I do it at my house, so, you know, whenever somebody calls and wants me to list some property or sell some property or want to buy some property, you know, I go and check them out.

Temeka Williams: So, in real estate, I know that your network is a big deal as 00:32:00far as your success, so what did you do to grow your network during this time even as it was hard?

Robert Mays: Actually, I'm not doing much of anything to increase my network. My computer right now is dying. I got to get a new computer. So--

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: So, I got to wait until that come in so I can go ahead and get these listings for the people that's interested in buying.

Temeka Williams: But, before the, you know, before your computer broke down and stuff, I mean, you've been doing this a long time, so--

Robert Mays: Oh yeah.

Temeka Williams: So, what did it take for you to build up your business and really get it together?

Robert Mays: Reference from my past experience, the ones that I've sold to, their children call me or the ones that want to sell their house and go to Georgia, wherever. They call me.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: So, I mean I get new buyers.

Temeka Williams: And are there any particular areas that you noticed did better 00:33:00at thriving compared to--

Robert Mays: Northwest. West. East.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: Other than inner city and this is for investment.

Temeka Williams: OK. So, what made those areas thrive more? Were there more--

Robert Mays: Because they're newer homes.

Temeka Williams: Oh, OK. It didn't have anything to do with the opportunities available there, too?

Robert Mays: Well, it's because they wanted to get the-- get in a better environment. Yeah.

Temeka Williams: OK. And what did you do to kind of give yourself a leg up against the-- your competition?

Robert Mays: What did I do? The only thing that I can see is from my past experience with my clients that they trusted me and they carried that on to the 00:34:00other perspective buyers. Had faith in what I was doing.

Temeka Williams: OK. And was it hard to establish that trust with people?

Robert Mays: It wasn't hard. It wasn't hard establishing it because if you want to be fair with anybody, I mean it's something that comes to you automatically.

Temeka Williams: OK. Alright. Well, is there anything I didn't ask you or didn't cover that you feel like would be relevant and especially in relation to the plant closings?

Robert Mays: No, but I can tell you one experience I had out the A.O. Smith while I was there. Well, I had three of them.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: One of them was I was working assembling welding machines and I had quite a bit of seniority and they brought in a white fellow to work in our 00:35:00department and eventually there was a layoff. According to seniority, the one with the least seniority gets laid off.

Temeka Williams: First, right.

Robert Mays: OK. So, instead of them laying him off, he tried to lay me off.

Temeka Williams: Was he above--

Robert Mays: Foreman.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: My foreman. And I told him, I said why are you laying me off? I said he's got less seniority than I have. I said I'm not going to stand for that. He said well, I've gave you a break to bring you into this department. I said yeah, but if I couldn't do the job, I wouldn't be here. I said and you taking money out of my family's mouth-- food out of my family's mouth.

I said and I'm not going to stand for it. So, I went to the superintendent, which is higher than the foreman, and told him. And they laid that young fellow off.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: Another job was when I was working in the factory I noticed that we, as far as the blacks were concerned, was getting less pay than the whites. Again, I went to the foreman and raised hell about that. And some black fellow, I forgot his name, that came from the South came over to me and told me I was a troublemaker. Said you're going to cause us to lose our jobs.

I said I'm not going to cause you to lose your jobs, I said, but hell I ain't going to be working the same-- doing the same thing that they're doing and we're getting less money. And I went to the superintendent about that and we got our pay.

Temeka Williams: Oh, good.

Robert Mays: So, then they wanted to make me steward because I didn't have any doubt in my mind that if I knew something was wrong that I wouldn't go ahead and try and take care of it.

Temeka Williams: What-- so when you got the raise for everyone, what did that gentleman say then?

Robert Mays: He laughed. Said thank you.

Temeka Williams: Oh. Well, good.

Robert Mays: Yeah. You know, but it was-- when I first started working out the A.O. Smith they call what they call the assembly line. Everybody had something to do. I mean you stayed busy all the time and you had to wait until you had a relief man to take your place so you could go to the bathroom.

Temeka Williams: Oh, OK.

Robert Mays: OK. You get this? I was on the line and I had to go to the bathroom and I couldn't wait for the relief man.

Temeka Williams: Uh oh.

Robert Mays: And I left.

Temeka Williams: Uh oh.

Robert Mays: Yeah. I left. I went to the bathroom and the whole line stopped. They called me down in the office and they chastised me because of that.

Temeka Williams: Yeah.

Robert Mays: I told them that I came here for a job, but I didn't come here to slave.

Temeka Williams: Right.

Robert Mays: And I'm not going to stay on this job. I said I've got enough seniority where I can go someplace else. And I went to the union and I went to another location where I didn't have to be on that line.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: I had a lot of experience out there. Helps a bit.

Temeka Williams: Well, it sounds like you weren't afraid to speak up for yourself, though.

Robert Mays: I'm never afraid to speak up, honey.

Temeka Williams: But, most people are, so how did-- did your peers approach you differently then?

Robert Mays: Oh, yes. They respected me.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: And the foremen and superintendent. Oh yeah, they respected me. When something happened, they come and let me know something happened. You know?

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: But, no I wasn't afraid.

Temeka Williams: Well, I didn't really ask you about that. I forgot to get back on the-- as far as the unions, you said you weren't allowed to join most of them at first, so it sounds like eventually you did get--

Robert Mays: No. As far as the union was concerned, after I left, I understand that we did-- they were able-- some blacks were able to join the electrical union and the plumbing union.

Temeka Williams: But, you said you could only do the heat assembling?

Robert Mays: Assembling. Laborer. Just common labor.

Temeka Williams: OK. So, there was only one union that you could join?

Robert Mays: It was only one union, 19806.

Temeka Williams: OK. And you said you did become a steward as a result--

Robert Mays: Became a steward, yeah, because they wanted me to-- they knew I could speak up.

Temeka Williams: And how much work did you do with the union?

Robert Mays: Well, I did a lot of work. Whenever something happened-- one thing good about the union being a steward when there's a complaint or anything, you can leave your job and fight for that and still get paid.

Temeka Williams: Oh, OK.

Robert Mays: So, you were able to do that. But, before I left A.O. Smith, something had happened that to me-- I went to take up a time study. They told me if I take up the time study that they would give me a job with that next. 00:41:00Seeing how much the job would pay per hour for piece work.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: After I did it and passed the test and everything, the superintendent told me that now you have to have a degree, engineering degree, in order to do it. OK?

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: So, that's when I went in to real estate. But, the year before I left A.O. Smith, I was allowed to take off whenever I had a closing in real estate.

Temeka Williams: Oh.

Robert Mays: And they would not find me and I did that quite often.

Temeka Williams: OK.

Robert Mays: And I got shamed and that's why I quit.

Temeka Williams: Oh.

Robert Mays: But, they allowed me-- all I had to do was tell them, I said I got a closing tomorrow, they said well, go ahead and take off.

Temeka Williams: OK. But, so you didn't have to negotiate anything for that?

Robert Mays: No.

Temeka Williams: So, you got your-- you didn't end up getting your degree in engineering, but you got your degree in real estate. Were they surprised when you did that instead?

Robert Mays: Not a degree in real estate. I got my license in real estate. Yeah. They were surprised in that, yeah. In fact, they were-- my foreman said why do you want to quit A.O. Smith when you've got all these children and depend on real estate? I told him well, that's the chance I have to take.

Temeka Williams: Sounds like it worked out for you.

Robert Mays: That's what I did.

Temeka Williams: Yeah. But, if you learned that the time-- you said time share or time stamp?

Robert Mays: What? You're talking about the-- yeah.

Temeka Williams: And so you decided not to get the engineering degree after they told you that?

Robert Mays: No. No. I had to go back to school and I decided not to go back to school.

Temeka Williams: No. Do you think they did that to discourage you? Or I should 00:43:00ask why did they tell you after the fact?

Robert Mays: It could have been the ruling by the plant-- by the plant itself, you know. By the president or whatever because we did eventually get a black time study man in that had his degree.

Temeka Williams: OK. But, why wouldn't they tell you before you took those classes that you needed that degree?

Robert Mays: They didn't. It didn't happen then. Isn't that something?

Temeka Williams: Yeah. I don't understand why you're going to--

Robert Mays: That's white folks.

Temeka Williams: How much do you think they did just to make you guys' life more difficult?

Robert Mays: As much as they could.

Temeka Williams: Yeah. Did they eventually get tired of doing that?

Robert Mays: Oh, no. White folk don't get tired, honey.

Temeka Williams: OK. I should know better, because honestly today I still am like I don't understand why.

Robert Mays: Yeah. They don't get tired. Whatever they can stop you from 00:44:00gaining any momentum, they're going to try it. Some of them. Not all of them. Some of them.

Temeka Williams: Well, how do you feel they-- when they saw that you were still able to succeed even after the plant closings?

Robert Mays: Well, they didn't know.

Temeka Williams: No?

Robert Mays: No. They didn't know.

Temeka Williams: OK. So, you weren't as involved. You left that piece of life behind you completely?

Robert Mays: Right.

Temeka Williams: Was that a conscious choice?

Robert Mays: Yeah.

Temeka Williams: OK. I understand that. Do you ever wish that you could get together with them? Any of those old? No? OK. Well, I feel like we covered everything. I'm trying to think if there's anything else I should have asked you. I'm glad we got back to the union thing, but yeah, it seems like your 00:45:00experience was different than a lot of other people, but do you think that-- do you think that had a lot to do with your mentality?

Robert Mays: Well, each individual has their own experience. I can't say whether it's for that or whatever. It's just the way I was brought up, that's all.

Temeka Williams: Yeah. OK. Well, unless you have anything else, I don't think I have any more questions. Alright. Thank you very much.