Interview with Earl Ingram, Jr., June 25, 2015, Milwaukee, Wisconsin



Robert Smith: It is June 25th at 11:23 a.m. We are at the Wisconsin Black Historical Society and we are about to conduct an interview with Mr. Earl Ingram. My name is Robert Smith, I'm a professor of history at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee and I will ask Mr. Ingram to introduce himself, as well as ask Mr. Ingram to spell his name so that we have it accurate on our records.

Earl Ingram Jr.: All right. Good morning. My name is Earl Ingram Jr. E-A-R-L-I-N-G-R-A-M Jr.

Robert Smith: The purpose of our interview today is to chronicle Mr. Ingram's history primarily his work history at A.O. Smith. But we will conduct this 00:01:00interview in three sections. The first section will be us discussing some background history and biographical information of Mr. Ingram. The second phase of the interview will get us into his work experience at A.O. Smith. And then the other reason why we're here and one of the key reasons why we're here is to discuss the impact of deindustrialization on African-American workers in particular, the African-American community in Milwaukee community more broadly but then also use this as an opportunity to get a better understanding of what deindustrialization has meant to cities across the nation and the nation more broadly. We are using Milwaukee, Wisconsin as a case study in a lot of ways for this examination because of the centrality of the labor and industry to the city.

Mr. Ingram if we can begin. You've given us your name and you spelled it for us, thank you very much. Can you give us your date of birth and your place of birth?

Earl Ingram Jr.: 6/21/54. Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Robert Smith: All righty. Thank you very much. Are you currently married?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes.

Robert Smith: All right. Can you share with us your wife's name?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Albertle [assumed spelling], Albertle.

Robert Smith: All righty. Thank you very much. And so what we'll do now just to begin the process of the interview and to get things warmed up is we will talk a little bit about your background. To begin this portion of it, can you tell us your parent's names?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Earl Ingram Sr. and Georgia Lee Ingram [assumed spelling]

Robert Smith: All righty. Are they from Milwaukee as well?

Earl Ingram Jr.: No, they're from Warren and Pine Bluff, Arkansas.

Robert Smith: Warren and Pine Bluff, Arkansas.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes sir.

Robert Smith: Where might Warren and Pine Bluff, Arkansas be located in the State of Arkansas?

Earl Ingram Jr.: I don't know. I've never went there.

Robert Smith: OK, so you've been here Milwaukee all your life you never visited Arkansas?

Earl Ingram Jr.: No. Sixty-one years I've been here.

Robert Smith: OK. Did your parents move here from Arkansas?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes they did?

Robert Smith: Can you tell us generally what year that was?

Earl Ingram Jr.: I would venture to say somewhere around the 1950, 1949.

Robert Smith: OK, great, 1949. When they moved here, where did they live? What were one of the key or what are the key areas where they lived here in the city?

Earl Ingram Jr.: 7th and Ring when they first move here.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And then eventually 4th in Meineke and then for the last 50 years or so, 25th and Townsend.

Robert Smith: And your parents are still alive.

Earl Ingram Jr.: My dad is still alive.

Robert Smith: And your mom passed away?

Earl Ingram Jr.: My mama passed away three years ago.

Robert Smith: OK. Do you have siblings?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Twelve.

Robert Smith: Wow. And were they all born here in Milwaukee?

Earl Ingram Jr.: All of them were born here, yes.

Robert Smith: OK, great. Can you tell us a little bit about what prompted your parents to leave Arkansas to come to Milwaukee, Wisconsin?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Job opportunities and Milwaukee was the machine capital of the world. And as many may know, was at a time when the war was going on and minorities who hadn't had the opportunities to work in factories in the north prior to that time came up to fill many of the voyage route and many Caucasians were fighting in the war.

Robert Smith: Did your dad and mom both work in industries here in Milwaukee?

Earl Ingram Jr.: No, only my dad.

Robert Smith: OK. Where did he work?

Earl Ingram Jr.: He worked at A.O. Smith also.

Robert Smith: OK, great. How long did he work there?

Earl Ingram Jr.: He worked about 20 years.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Prior to that he worked at a place called American Motors that was here. So, back during that time they used to lay people off quite a bit. And so they would move from once again laid off at American Motors they would move to other different factories of the different companies. So he had 10 00:05:00years or so with American Motors and then additional 20 some years at A.O. Smith.

Robert Smith: And so he retired from at A.O. Smith?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes.

Robert Smith: OK. As he experienced his first-- enrolled into industry in Milwaukee, what were some of the jobs that he did?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Well, he was a welder. In the military, he was a heavy played welder and he carried that skill set along with him once he came up north. At American Motors they made automobiles and so welding was one of the main stays of what was done. And when he came over to A.O. Smith, A.O. Smith was a producer of automobile frames and welding was the key component in what they did there. So welding was what he did it.

Robert Smith: Yeah. So he learned his skills primarily as a function of being in the military?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes sir.

Robert Smith: OK. When he-- as a member of the military, did he experienced any discrimination? Did he ever talk about any of that?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Well, yeah, yeah he did. I mean he talked about the fact that he was treated differently than other soldiers, not only him but most black soldiers. He was in the Korean War. And so, even as they travel overseas, they face discrimination. It was nothing new and nothing unusual. He wasn't alone in that. It was a part of what was going on in the nation at that time.

Robert Smith: Absolutely. Did he ever-- or did your parents ever talk about their experiences with racism and discrimination in Arkansas?

Earl Ingram Jr.: No, my dad never did other than the fact that he left Arkansas at the age of 12 year-- 13 years of age. Then it was based on the fact that he-- his dad passed and new opportunity existed in different parts of the country. And it wasn't unusual for young men and boys actually to migrate to the north for opportunities that they didn't see where they lived.

Robert Smith: All right. As he-- did he move with people? Did he come by himself? How did he--

Earl Ingram Jr.: No, he came by himself. There was a relative that was here, an aunty that he's staying with and that's how I transcribe it.

Robert Smith: OK. And when he moved here, where was the aunt living?

Earl Ingram Jr.: I don't-- couldn't give you that information.

Robert Smith: OK. OK. Thank you very much.

Earl Ingram Jr.: It was a lot sooner than that, earlier than I being born.

Robert Smith: You know, as part of our history courses, we often talk about that period around World War II as the second phase of the Great Migration.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Right.

Robert Smith: And so, this is really rich information that gives us details about those migration experiences.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Right.

Robert Smith: So when folks listen to the interview, you know, we want to ask a bunch of--

Earl Ingram Jr.: OK.

Robert Smith: -- really particular question. So we pull that history out as well. And so your-- and what kind of work did your mom do?

Earl Ingram Jr.: My mom was a-- She took care of the home with 13 children.

Robert Smith: Now, did they meet in Arkansas?

Earl Ingram Jr.: They met in Arkansas. And so, after he found a job, she came up.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: She came, yeah.

Robert Smith: Yeah, yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So she was a home keeper up until I would say 1975. And then she found again an opportunity as most of the kids were up and out of the way at this, of her own career.

Robert Smith: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you for sharing. Can you-- As the best as you can, can you name all the siblings [laughs]

Earl Ingram Jr.: Oh absolutely. My eldest sister is Linda [assumed spelling] Linda Jackson. My second eldest brother is Lester Ingram [assumed spelling]and my third eldest brother who has since passed was Donald Ray [assumed spelling]. The next in line was Jacky [assumed spelling]. The next in line was my sister 00:09:00Patricia [assumed spelling]. Next in line was myself. Then there's my brother Gary [assumed spelling], my sister Pamela [assumed spelling], my brother Ricky [assumed spelling] who has since passed, my sister Mary [assumed spelling] and my brother James and the last in the list is my brother Michael [assumed spelling].

Smith: OK, wonderful, wonderful. How was it like having such a big family?

Earl Ingram Jr.: It was a lot of fun man when you're young. It was great having that kind of love and admiration and even struggle. We're such a large family but as I've come to find later on, it's also a curse as we're all now over 50. Somebody is going to have to pay the last rights to all of them. So you have to 00:10:00reconcile yourself with death--

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: -- because there are going to be a lot of death--

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: -- in the coming years. So, on the one hand it's blessing, on the other hand it's-- there's time, the evil consequences of time catches up, it's going to be a lot of pain.

Robert Smith: Yeah, absolutely.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So you have to prepare yourself for that.

Robert Smith: Absolutely. What are-- give us some childhood memories, if there's one or two stories that sort of ringed out as what is that like having those-- that many siblings and, you know, give us a story or two.

Earl Ingram Jr.: You know the first one and the most lasting one was my brother Donald who had a cancer at the stem of his brain. And back in 1964 at the age of 12, we never knew, you know, you're 10 years old-- 9 years old and you're watching someone you love kind of waste away, you know.

They tried to perform surgery on him but as you can-- well know by then-- back then they didn't have the technology and the things that they had and.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Never forget the pain that it caused and the rest that it caused my mother. And just watching him waste away kind of impacted me, and sort of impacted all of us in a special way. But it created and instilled something in me that I didn't know what's happening at that time but I have to carry with me throughout my life. That's the concern for humanity and through others and how life is not promised.

And he had extreme talent in art-- in other things but yet he was taken away. Now, the great side of it was the family gatherings and connecting with other. My dad had a twin sister named Pearl [assumed spelling]. So he had 13, she had 12.

Robert Smith: Wow.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And so, interacting as young people and going to the parts of uncles and family and extended family which creates who we are today I think was really, really instrumental in who I am today.

Robert Smith: Did -- Does your dad-- or does your dad have more than one sibling?

Earl Ingram Jr.: He had three.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: One is still alive, his sister. One of his sisters is still alive he lost his twin sister and his younger brother decade or so ago.

Robert Smith: Now, did they all end up coming to Milwaukee--

Earl Ingram Jr.: All of them were here.

Robert Smith: So you've got a huge family in Milwaukee.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Oh, absolutely.

Robert Smith: If you could give us a number about how many brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces, cousins, I mean, a ball park figure.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Oh man, It would be at least a 150, 200, [laughs] yeah. I mean 00:13:00Milwaukee was home.

Robert Smith: Yeah, yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: It was the only home that I've known and I haven't lived anywhere else, so this is it for me.

Robert Smith: Yeah. You all do family reunions I imagine or?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Well, you know the same in the aging process and when you lose the patriarchs and the matriarchs of the families and people get so busy. As you get older you don't continue that tradition.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And its part of what is wrong with our community now is that the things that created us and made us who we are, we have not continued that, and as a saying because our kids and grandchildren don't get to benefit of what we learned about the beauty of family.

Robert Smith: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, thank you. Thank you very much for sharing that. How about schools, what schools did your siblings attend, you and your sibling?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Well, we started at school called Garfield Avenue between 4th in Meineke. And a significance of that is the first black principal in 00:14:00Milwaukee public school was our principal.

Robert Smith: Do you remember that principal's name?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Grant Gordon. There's no way I could not forget him. Grant Gordon, it was a time when we lived on 4th in Meineke and just like people used to say when the teachers lived on the same block you lived on.

Robert Smith: Right, right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yeah, some of my teachers lived on the same block I lived on. There was all black. The many male black teachers who very strong personalities, who knew your family and since I had such a large family they taught my oldest siblings and as I came down that same path, they knew what standards your parents had set.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And so, they didn't allow much foolishness because those who came before you set a standard that they expected you to maintain.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And So Garfield was a great starting point for me and many of our siblings as many of us who went through the same group of teachers, who loved and cared and respected our parents and us.

Robert Smith: And then-- So that was your grade school experience then. Where'd you go middle school?

Earl Ingram Jr.: It was an amazing dichotomy, I went from an all black reality but we were the first group to be best

Robert Smith: OK. About what year was this?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Sixty-seven I think-- no '68.

Robert Smith: OK

Earl Ingram Jr.: So we went from open housing and all that had taken place. And so I went from an all black school to a 98%, 99% white middle school,

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: as we were then moved to school club Peckham Junior High School, and learn I want to become Jackie Robinson. It's no longer there now, 00:16:00but I went from that all black reality to an all white one. And really my eyes became opened to a lot that I had never even thought about even though I was a child of the Civil rights struggle. And what took place here in the city of Milwaukee with black summer, summer of the north and all those things.

Now I found myself in an all white reality from an all black reality, as a young person changed my concept and my belief in people.

Robert Smith: When you first went to that all white school is that Peckham Junior High?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes

Robert Smith: What are some of the memories, some of your feelings, you know, how did you experience that early as you're walking into this all white school?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Well there's only about 30 of us, 25 of us that first year. And I'll never forget they had assigned seats in the cafeteria for us.

Robert Smith: Really?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Which meant, we all had to sit over in the corner, it's a public school.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And at lunch time assigned seats for us, we were all in the corner. We've figured getting that, but we're still idealistic about the worlds and 14 years old.

Robert Smith: Yeah and there’s some comfort in that so, you know, yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes. So you really didn't see and understand what was taking place. Teachers treated us differently. Principals treated us differently. We couldn't leave the block to go to the store across the street, none of those things. We never thought it was really a big deal.

Robert Smith: Yeah, Yeah. Now as you experience busing, were you all forced to be in the same classrooms too?

Earl Ingram Jr.: No. They had this kind of separated in different classrooms.

Robert Smith: And I ask that question because the number of ways that school desegregation gets manipulated is of course with putting kids-- all the black 00:18:00kids in one classroom or the schools begin the tracking process and suggesting that these black children aren't as smart and so, there were a number-- I'm just wondering if you experienced any of those kinds of strategies?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Absolutely. We received a different-- a second class education to those who were there before us. I didn't realize that until much later in life. They didn't give us the same quality of education.

Robert Smith: Even in the school?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Like in the school that our white counterparts had. And I was aware of it because we got a heck of an education in grade school from the all black reality from teachers who would demand the best of you, principals and family members. And so we were pretty well-prepared to move on and do great things in that school is just that we weren't given the same opportunity. 00:19:00Didn't know it at that time but later on I realized that was the case.

Robert Smith: Yeah. And so, you were there for sixth, seventh and eighth grade?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes.

Robert Smith: OK. In terms of the city, the geography of the city, so you lived in and around Meineke, 4th and Meineke.

Earl Ingram Jr.: What happened was we-- 1969 my dad, we moved from 4th and Meineke to 25th and Townsend.

Robert Smith: OK

Earl Ingram Jr.: We were there 80 years then but we were the second proverbial black family to move into this neighborhood. My dad worked at A.O. Smith so he could afford it. There was only one other black family in that entire area.

Robert Smith: Yeah

Earl Ingram Jr.: And we moved in. So now, this was a year after I was in Peckham. We moved into the neighborhood and right away the neighborhood started changing.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Because one thing we went for [inaudible] that they brought 13 children.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And so that was frightening to people that hadn't been around by choice, had not been around black people and all of a sudden we came and right away they had drawn conclusion that we were going to create all sorts of--

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: -- excuse me, mayhem, in the neighborhood but never did because none of my brothers and sisters have ever been to jail. My parents were very strict and very respectful of others and they taught us like that reality.

Robert Smith: Yeah, yeah. As the cities demographic start to change, as folks, as we-- you know, phrases like white flight suburbanization, you grew up though in an area even near or in what was referred to as Bronxville, is that correct?

Earl Ingram Jr.: No, Bronxville was a lot further. I grew up while Bronxville 00:21:00was closer to me when we lived on 4th in Meineke than it was when we moved on 25th and Townsend.

Robert Smith: Yes absolutely. So as when you were younger you were--

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes, across the Bronxville at that point in time.

Robert Smith: Because it's such an important component of the city's history, can you talk a little bit about Bronxville?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Well, you know-- You ever hear Lina's [assumed spelling] food stores?

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: When I was a young man-- or a young boy, Lina's first store was on the corner of 4th in North Avenue. And I never will forget, that was long before they had a major food chain, that one that you'd have one that was ANP which was right next to Lina's. But in our neighborhood in our community, black owned grocery stores, black owned pharmacist, black owned cleaners, black owned 00:22:00plumbers, it is true.

Everything we needed to sustain us was there in Bronxville, well-maintained, well-kept people, commerce, creating commerce amongst themselves dollars turning over. We didn't thinking anything other than such a young person.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And that was life

Robert Smith: In a city that has quite a little employment for folks.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Correct yeah. So at the time, all these people work middle class jobs, there was plenty money around, it wasn't just A.O. Smith there was industry all over this-- all over the city, North Side as well as South Side. And these were family sustaining jobs, so people own their homes. Everybody owned a nice car who owned a one.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And so there was money available, there was to sustain the entertainment venues that were in the neighborhoods, in the communities. All of 00:23:00that was there, all of that was real

Robert Smith: Yeah. If there are a couple of establishments either a restaurant or a bar, or-- is there any establishment that you just kind of have a memory for this you would like to share?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Osseous 502.

Robert Smith: What's that one?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Well, it's in-- it's been redone now. They tore down maybe about 15 years or so ago and built a brand new one.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So it's still on that corner but the owners we have it now that preserved what was really important landmark for people in our community.

Robert Smith: Where is it located?

Earl Ingram Jr.: It's on 502 East Garfield.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So that's why it was called 502

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So it's very well-known, people out there just like they were 50 years ago, only a whole different segment, whole different group of people.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: But it's a testament to what entertainment and club owners were very well-respected place. You ask me to think of-- I'll tell you. I have to even go back to this grocery store and I too can tell you about a lot of different ones, but Lina's was to me to see-- there were several other smaller grocery stores there was Dick's, Lina's and Carter's.

And so these were small corner stores but-- if for the first time, you could go in when you're young and see black people controlling and running all those things. Don't forget I was a very young person then. You know, I think we moved away from Garfield when I was about 12 years old. But I remember the 00:25:00great times there are no fussing, no fighting, no arguing. This is a nice safe community I grew up in.

It could have very well been to suburb because there was-- the worse you would have is somebody having a drink a little bit too much and it used some cross language when I grew up, so we lived in a protected environment.

Robert Smith: Yeah. And as-- so you were a part of the process were the black community is expanding.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Oh, we thought that one.

Robert Smith: And it's moving. The black community is growing into areas that were once all white and this is within the city limits.

Earl Ingram Jr.: That's correct.

Robert Smith: Can you just talk a little bit about the changes in those demographics, you know, about when you started to notice the demographic is changing and what areas of town that were maybe off limits but then black people began to move into?

Earl Ingram Jr.: When I was at Garfield Avenue, the black people couldn't live beyond 27th in Capitol Drive. And so you'd probably heard that. And I never 00:26:00thought much out because my community was a small community, but it was sufficient for my needs, so I never though about anything outside of it. Capital Corp was, I don't know if you've ever heard of that, it was, you know, if you got a chance to go to Capital Corp you had made it to the big time.

And so if every now and then we have an opportunity to for field trip we get on the bus and we go out to Capital Corp where that was like us, you know, going out to Brookfield today. It was an area where the only time and only way and chance you would get to even go there. My parents did never take us there. That's when the school would take you there, they had something called a cookie, cookie house and they had a small carnival that was on the corner there, 60th in Capital.

And so for kids like us we couldn't get to go to major carnivals. We could go 00:27:00out and have a change to ride on different rides in those kind of things, what I notice over the years especially when we first got there, people who weren't very happy to see you there and made it clear that you weren't wanted.

Robert Smith: Right, right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: When we moved to 25th in Townsend which was actually three blocks away from A.O. Smith, I never understood why we move where we did, but it was three blocks away from where my dad worked.

Robert Smith: So he walked to work?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Absolutely. So he walked to work and--

Robert Smith: He probably did. Would he come home for lunch occasionally too?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Well, he works second shift and, you know, I never understood why he want to work second shift, but if I had 13 [laughs] we have a little piece.

Robert Smith: That he'll probably made a little bit more on second shift.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Right, we got a little bit more money on second shift, yeah. But, you have this whole neighborhood was white.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And as we moved in, people begin to move out immediately, you know. It reminded me of the movie A Raisin in the Sun by Sidney Poitier my favorite movie and what was taking place when they try to buy the house in Chicago. It was a same reality. People just did not want to be around somebody who didn't look like them.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Milwaukee being the segregated city as it was back then as it is now. There's a whole lot worse then.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So as we started, black people started moving around. It's only been 50 years or so that black people really started moving beyond, you know, Capitol Drive.

Robert Smith: Yeah

Earl Ingram Jr.: People will still forget just how segregated the City of Milwaukee was in the history of it.

Robert Smith: And we certainly are still living with it.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Right, yes.

Robert Smith: Absolutely. Now as you get older, what high school did you go to?

Earl Ingram Jr.: I went to a high school called Washington High School, and--

Robert Smith: That was the George Washington or Booker T. Washington?

Earl Ingram Jr.: No [laughs], just Washington I can't argue that. And I didn't realize at the time that was a Jewish school. Back in 1969 when I first started going to Washington High School, Washington high school, there was probably 8% of the school black. We left Peckham and went to Washington, but as I later found out, you know, Sherman Park in that area that was all Jewish, that was a Jewish enclave, that whole area in the neighborhood at Sherman Park as they talk 00:30:00about it today as one of the most diverse neighborhoods in the entire state.

I happen to reside in Sherman Park, but Jews were in that neighborhood and so the school was one of the highest performing schools in the entire nation in Washington high school standards were as high as any high school anywhere in the country back in those days and didn't realize it, but again they gave us second tier education as suppose--

Robert Smith: Even in high school?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Absolutely.

Robert Smith: OK. And how did that play out? As you reflect back, how did you come to know that you weren't getting the same opportunities in the school?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Later on when I talked with some of my classmates because, look, I had a lot of white friends. I've never judge my friends on the color of one's skin even back where we lived in the black reality because there was a man 00:31:00moving at that time when I was a young man called Dr. Martin Luther King. And so just breathing in everything that Dr. King said and did, you know, of the time when television was starting to come into prominence too and so you could see all these things on television and so Dr. King's beliefs in judging people solely by-- not by the color of the skin, but the content of their character really had a major impression-- made a major impression on me.

And so I never shy away from somebody based on color and so there were some light trains that I had who later on went on and become doctors and dentist and all sorts of other successful careers in a career past and we talked as I 00:32:00continued to have relationships within even today about what they received in high school and then what I and others like myself black men and young women who came into Washington and what they offered us.

Robert Smith: Yeah, yeah. Great. You know, you mentioned Dr. King, let's talk a little bit about your experiences in your recollections about the civil rights era either prior to the 1950s or if it was everything the folks were sharing with you about stuff they were up to before the '50s, but then also as you are coming of age in the '60s there. Just share us some thoughts about your memories.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Well I got to tell you the start. It started for me in 6th grade when, you know, back even prior to then, they would have us, scare us to death as children because we use to have to do air raids, like now they do fire 00:33:00drills. We would always have to practice putting out here exam to desk. All of a sudden the alarm would go off and you put it here and so we though that there is going to be a nuclear annihilation they were teaching this as is as key and shit.

It will scare you to death.

Robert Smith: Absolutely.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And so--

Robert Smith: Bomb shelters, a-OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And so never thought much of it until about the 6th grade and I remember we knew about Russia. They made it clear to us that Russia was the enemy and that eventually we're going to wind up in this nuclear holocaust. And so I remember in the 6th grade around noon, you know, of '61 now some of my memories not decrease. I start, you know, flee from a little bit, but I remember this clearly.

Sixth grade around noon, they rolled a big television into our classroom and say that the president of the United States John F. Kennedy has just been assassinated. And while we're watching this, I don't know how much of it we're actually taking in.

Robert Smith: Now how old were you then, I'm sorry.

Earl Ingram Jr.: That I was in the 6th grade so I must have been about 12 years-old.

Robert Smith: Yeah, yeah, yeah OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And they said John F. Kennedy is just been assassinated. I was 9 years old.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Because I was born in 1954, F. Kennedy died in 63. So I was 9 years old and I was not in 6th grade, it must been about 5th-- 4th grade.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: But anyway, and they said the President of the United States is just been assassinated and I never will forget the fear that came in to us, me and many others because we though that meant that there is going to be a nuclear war because right away we were under the assumption that the Russians did it.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And so that was the first recollection that I had of something other than just having a peaceful childhood. From that point then it was the assassination of Medgar Evers, and--

Robert Smith: So you were aware of that even that, you know even that young.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Absolutely because of my dad, always had that stuff on at home. He kind of made us--

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: -- pay attention to that.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: The assassination of Medgar Evers and then that was followed by the assassination of Malcolm X, probably who was Malcolm X during, then the assassination of Dr. King, the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And all of those things playing out one after another as a 00:36:00young person that had a major impact on me. We learn that at 4th in Meineke. So when Dr. King was assassinated and the city is burned, so did Milwaukee.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Other than 4th of Meieneke, 3rd Street to main [inaudible] which is now Dr. King garage was a block away from where we lived that burned. And I remember the tanks and the National Guard standing on our corners as we were not allowed-- its curfew. We're not allowed to move around. So, during that struggle and watching Dr. King as he moved and the beauty of him to actually live and emulate Christ in every way, shape or form because that's 00:37:00exactly what he did.

He lived the life of Christ lived. He gave his life thought as he knew he was going to die but yet he did it anyway. It had a major impact on my life and made me realize the importance of fighting for others injustice. And even to this day, I've dedicated my life to do on to others and will continue to do that until the day I die, but that's mainly because of what took place as I was a young person growing up all of those different things that happened to form who I am and many like me.

Robert Smith: Were you involved in any way with local civil rights struggles?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes, actually the Selma of the North. Most people even in the city don't even know what took place here. We had our own Bull Connor his name is Harold Breier. We had our own racists who did not want us to cross. We 00:38:00couldn't go on the south side, that was absolutely out, it was pretty clear where the lines were drawn.

And so I never had a chance to go over to the South side, my mom was protective of us, but we got involved in the movement because with the commandos, which is right in our neighborhood, and those folks who just weren't going to take it. Now, but the same time I was enamored with the struggle and Dr. King and all of that. Malcolm X was not a direction that I had gone because I believed in Dr. King and nonviolence.

But I also was aware of-- excuse me, Stokely Carmichael, Eldridge Cleaver, Huey P. Newton, Fred Hampton, Bobby Seale, Elijah Mohammad, Malcolm X, you know, 00:39:00Kwame Ture, all of them. Because they were years ago at the time and they were the other side of what Dr. King was. And so espousing this in your face would not going to take it, we're going to fight tooth by tooth and they all part of that was starting to come into my being too.

So it was a time that I'll say even today to many young people. If they would have had the opportunities that my generation had to have lived that, they would not be doing some of the things they're doing now because they didn't have those leaders. If you look at them and look at contrast the times that they were young people and they would not have one person that they could point to while 00:40:00we had all those prominent people who kind of made us who we are.

Robert Smith: Of various ages

Earl Ingram Jr.: Oh of various ages, correct. Right now for them and generation X's basically be entertainers

Robert Smith: All right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And not conscious people.

Robert Smith: Absolutely.

Earl Ingram Jr.: What that has to do with anything we're talking about, I don't know.

Robert Smith: Well it has everything to do with it.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Oh OK.

Robert Smith: I think it has a lot to do with it. Well let's start to transition to you becoming a part of the industrial work force. So, you are at Washington High School?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes Sir.

Robert Smith: Did you have any jobs while you're in high school?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yeah. You know, when I grew-- when I moved into the neighborhood, back in those days they had what they call introductory jobs and they were paper works. OK, so 12 years old, you learn work ethic.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: They were paper outs--

Robert Smith: Had the managing money too.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes you had to send all in the evening they had the journal. So I had-- when I was 12 years old I got my first paper out. I had a hundred and several costumers. And I had brothers, so we kind of did it together. But it taught me the work ethic at a very young age. Not just me, my peers, all of those had opportunities then. I'll never forget there was a Rexall drugstore that might be a little bit before your time but they used to be Rexall drugstore long before they were made a change of Walgreens and CVS.

All neighborhoods had local pharmacies, and an old German couple, Elma [assumed spelling] and Mater, [assumed spelling], Mater Detmen [assumed spelling], ran a Rexall drugstore in the neighborhood about a block from where I lived. Now this should bring much change in from my paper out.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And they liked how I counted the money.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Right, that I always bringing a lot of coins and count it out. And about two years after them watching me, they ask me, thought I'd want to work in the drugstore? And now I was blown away, you know, for a family of 13, my parents can't give me a lot financially.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: They kept a roof over our heads, they kept clothes on our back, they kept food on the table but as far as you having some money and spend to do other things they couldn't do that.

Robert Smith: You have to get paper wrapped [laughs].

Earl Ingram Jr.: So to make a long story short, I worked in that drugstore from the age of 14 all the way up to 18. And I did everything then for them. Everything from checking in the drugs to cashiering, to stocking shelves, I've 00:43:00learned an awful lot about that business and those four years that I was there. But not only did I have that opportunity but my peers also in that community was a neighborhood grocery store Mizeners [?], a neighborhood five and dime, other drugstores, other businesses that employed my generation. Anybody who wanted the job had one. And so we could do things, we could go to state fair, we could go to carnivals, we could do the same things that many white children could do, because their parents were more affluent, but we had opportunities.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Financially they have money in our pockets and could do the things we wanted to do and not have that burden on our parents, all of my siblings have jobs who are old enough they were there, they were available.

Robert Smith: Right, right. Wow, it's great. So, as you're in high-- did you 00:44:00play any sports in high school?

Earl Ingram Jr.: I played football. They allowed me to play one sport.

[00:44:09] Robert Smith: OK.

[00:44:09] Earl Ingram Jr.: And I remember Mr. Defans [assumed spelling] saying to me, you know I love sports but you can only pick one and that was football, so I chose football.

[00:44:20] Robert Smith: OK. Great, thank you. So as you're wrapping up your high school years, about when did you start working at A.O. Smith?

[00:44:31] Earl Ingram Jr.: You know, 9 of my 12 siblings went on to college, OK? I was the--

[00:44:40] Robert Smith: Twelve?

[00:44:41] Earl Ingram Jr.: Yeah. I was the only one who followed my dad into industry. And mind you I had six, seven other brothers. But I was the only one who followed him there.

[00:44:54] Robert Smith: And they-- What schools did they generally go to? Do they all kind of go to--

[00:44:58] Earl Ingram Jr.: Stevens Point, Platteville.

[00:45:00] Robert Smith: So they stayed in the UW system?

[00:45:02] Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes, stayed in UW system.

[00:45:05] Robert Smith: Wow, OK, OK.

[00:45:06] Earl Ingram Jr.: So-- Look, back then you had to have wood shop, metal shop, mechanical drawing in order to graduate. Those were you don't have any choice so those were classes you had to take and pass in order to graduate. And I understand why now because industry was here and they needed to kind of, you know, for people who were going to go into that give them a little background on what to do to prepare them to go there.

And so I never thought about going to college, I certainly had the ability to go but I never. I enjoyed the thing with my hands, I enjoyed working with things. And I learned that during the time I was in school. So, I graduated from high school June 8th, 1972. By-- and I worked then full time at the drugstore from 00:46:00June until September.

I had really already been accepted to go to Stout University, OK. I had already been accepted to go to Stout in which I'll suppose to go in September. And I told my dad I'm going to come and work with A.O. Smith during the summer at that time, they were-- they have kids during the summer before they go to-- because they had lack of people to work. They didn't have-- there's so many competing companies that they was taking 18 year old kids out of high school.

And so I went in to A.O. Smith my dad told me don't go. And I understood what he meant, he said don't go because he knew once I went in there, I was not going to wind up going anywhere else because the pay was so.

Robert Smith: Well how much pay do we talk?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Quite back then it was a dollar 75 cent an hour.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: OK, that was 1972.

Robert Smith: You dad was flunked at high school.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes. They didn't-- you know, they didn’t pay us what they paid everybody else, but even that was pretty good money for me. And I got in there and I kind of, you know, worked some overtime, you know, 18 years old and, you know, hormones. And had a girlfriend you got to go places and so you've got money in your pocket.

Robert Smith: Absolutely.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So I wound up staying there, little did I know, I would be there from 18 to 54 years of age. I had no concept and I won't spend that much time in any one place with the opportunity presents itself.

Robert Smith: Now how did you transition from being a high school student working there to full-time employee?

Earl Ingram Jr.: They asked me to come in and they said, "Do you want to work 00:48:00full-time here?" And I said, "Yes sir, I wouldn't mind doing it." And they said, "Can you start this evening?" Third shift and I started.

Robert Smith: And you already had experience there anyway.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yeah

Robert Smith: Yeah

Earl Ingram Jr.: And I started third shift and the whole line everybody who started there was brand new.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So it was very easy draft.

Robert Smith: What was your bump in pay from high school--

Earl Ingram Jr.: It went from a dollar 75, I think $3 and 50 cent an hour.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Which is good money, in 1972.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And so I started and it was so easy, you know. And the time just flew by I would always read, I had book with me and I always enjoyed reading, so.

Robert Smith: What was your initial job?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Well it was in assembly line

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And on this assembly line, we put together automobile frames. So, you start from scratch and you have to build the frame. So there were all sorts of stations. Then I was right at the beginning of the station, you've got to have what's called the front pin which is where the motor mount goes.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: To an automobile. I would take a smart plan off of in house conveyer belt that was above your head take it off put it on a conveyer belt that would send those down to the guys who would then weld all that stuff together. That was it. That was my job.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And so everybody was new, which meant it was a very slow, slow process.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: I got to sleep a lot. And that's the rest as they say is history.

Robert Smith: Right

Earl Ingram Jr.: It was not much to do at all for the first year or so that I was there. But I made so much money man it was too enticing.

Robert Smith: Yeah. So your dad was a welder?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes

Robert Smith: And so as a skilled tradesman. Did he experience any discrimination at A.O. Smith?

Earl Ingram Jr.: No, without a doubt. My dad was a heavy plate welder.

Robert Smith: OK

Earl Ingram Jr.: Right now all you hear in this city major corporation ask for welders. And what they're talking about a heavy plate welder is that's a trade.

Robert Smith: Yeah

Earl Ingram Jr.: That's a tradesman. The welding that they did in A.O. Smith for the most part was, it was remained only to A.O. Smith. It was kind of, why welding, it was not a trade fact. And so just because you were welding the A.O. Smith did not mean you're qualified to go, well, at one of these major companies 00:51:00that did heavy plate welding. My dad had that skill from the military. So, those who have what they call heavy repair welders at A.O. Smith who made tremendous amount of money and worked-- didn't work anywhere near as hard and didn't have the credentials that my dad had.

He wasn't able to get that position until about the last five years of his employment.

Robert Smith: Now when did he retire again?

Earl Ingram Jr.: He retired-- My dad had to have retired in about 1985.

Robert Smith: OK. So he worked quite a bit at the time and he was facing a particular type of job discrimination where he had a job.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes.

Robert Smith: But he still wasn't being able to maximize his skill set and pay.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Absolutely. When I first came into A.O. Smith, I put in applied for to become a tradesman. I have the academics I could have very 00:52:00easily become that but we never got the opportunity. White guys my age came in to become tradesman, they all became tradesman.

Robert Smith: And how did they get into that?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Because if their family member, their uncle, their cousin or somebody else was a tradesman, they would send their nephews and cousins, and relatives over they're likely got first shot first option. And you couldn't prove it, you know, this is such was the way things in this country.

Robert Smith: So your dad was a skilled welder.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Absolutely.

Robert Smith: But because of the employment line he was in, he didn't have the same access to what were the actual internal skill trades for A.O. Smith.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Correct.

Robert Smith: And so he couldn't then-- I'm sure you went to that channel either.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Correct

Robert Smith: Even though he was probably the most skilled than most of the 00:53:00welders there.

Earl Ingram Jr.: That's correct.

Robert Smith: All right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Now I tell you this, there at A.O. Smith at 6500 employees when I work there. Out of that 6500 employees in 1972, I think there were 3 black tradesmen. So and even as I was leaving in 2007, there were still probably less than 1% black tradesman.

At the unions--

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: -- we worried people, they have misconceptions, the unions weren't always open to allowing minorities access, they weren't no different than the nation itself.

Robert Smith: And they really control the trade.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Absolutely.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Absolutely.

Robert Smith: Yeah. Can you give us a sense on what the difference in pay was from somebody who was considered a skilled thing?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Oh significant. Not only was it significant the difference in 00:54:00pay, but the safety and the quality of work that you did. Look, if you're on assembly line that means you are there for the entire eight hours. It meant that you worked along with all the other people you had to carry your load, so nobody is going to wait on you. You know one station push the next station until you work and you earn your money.

If you were a tradesman you work at your own pace, and sometimes made twice as much money. And during those times we work 7 days a week.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: You know, and sometimes 365 days a year, because A.O. Smith was the top machine stamping company in the world, so it's significant difference in pay.

Robert Smith: In case I was a little bit more about what A.O. Smith actually manufacturer.

Earl Ingram Jr.: A.O. Smith was the top manufacturer of automobile frames in the nation-- in the world, I'm sorry, in the world. A.O. Smith also produce powdered metal. A.O. Smith produce--

Robert Smith: Is it powdered metal?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Powdered metal

Robert Smith: What was that?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Powdered metal was a metal in powdered form when then-- it works and used in foundries, OK? And so they would pour that into casts, and heated up and create whatever type metal they really want to but strictly in powder it was fine. So they created powdered metal. They produce powdered metal. They produce glass coding, which was a glass coding that would go over certain pipes that's used in different-- a various manufacturing, they produce elevators.

We produce elevators, we produce silos. Anytime you drive around the country you'll see silos.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: There's A.O. Smith on it.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: A.O. Smith produce, well, just-- they were so diversified in what they produce, but what they were known the number one for was automobile frames, and truck frames.

Robert Smith: And the production of those, were those all sort of assembly line based or was the powdered metal much more--

Earl Ingram Jr.: Those were separate-- complete separate areas. I mean, A.O. Smith had patents that are still used today. A.O. Smith was more than just 00:57:00people welding, and putting together automobile frames, they're research and development companies have patents as I said before, that are still being utilized today. They were a head of the curve, and they are ahead of the game. They were all over the world.

Even back then, they have plants in all over the world as they produce periodic different.

Robert Smith: And was the Milwaukee was or is still the headquarters right now?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Milwaukee was the headquarters of A.O. Smith on 27th in Townsend that was the main headquarters for A.O. Smith and headquarters for A.O. Smith globally is still in Milwaukee but it's in Menominee Falls is where it's located.

Robert Smith: And can you give us a sense of just how the size of the industry, square footage or, how many city blocks?

Earl Ingram Jr.: A.O. Smith went from 27th in Townsend to 35th in Townsend. 00:58:00They went from to 35ft Street and Capital Townsend, somewhere around 60 acres right in the middle of the city. And it may had the best connections, the tracks went from A.O. Smith to Jones Island and all over.

The real system back there is-- was one of the best in the entire nation and that's why they were such a valuable, valuable property. Because it controlled the-- and had access to moving its product all over the country.

Robert Smith: And so for your experiences at A.O. Smith, what types of jobs did you have in your stay there?

Earl Ingram Jr.: You what? Early on, when you're young and think you're indestructible, I enjoyed the hard work there. It was my way of just working 00:59:00out networks, basically working on presses as I said before A.O. Smith was the number one stamp in operation in the world. Nobody had more presses than A.O. Smith.

Robert Smith: At least they stamp there and compresses just tell us what you mean by that.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Compresses are where you take a piece of steel and you put it in a press that is powered either by water or electricity. And the top when it comes down into a mold it stamps a part out.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: There's a mold, there's an upper piece of that mold and the bottom piece of the mold and you lay a blank piece of metal on top of that mold and it stamps.

Robert Smith: And that could be an automobile frame?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes. Or parts, use of parts. You produce parts that produce the automobile frames.

Robert Smith: Got you.

Earl Ingram Jr.: There's probably to produce one frame that's got to be-- you 01:00:00had to be 50 to 75 different parts to make one frame and I'm maybe even under cutting that. So each one of those parts had to be produced individually.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So and-- When I say 75, it's probably more like 175 different parts. And so each one of them had to be produced in its own area stamped the same way.

Robert Smith: Yeah, yeah. OK great thank you. And, you know, we were talking about what sorts of jobs you had?

Earl Ingram Jr.: So I did that. I was in transportation I drove a lot. I was a janitor. Later on I worked in heavy pressing, and heavy press was where we produced, you know, side frames for semi-trailers for all buses that you see. It was really heavy, heavy work. The presses, some of them were 50 feet high 01:01:00and 50 feet below the ground, 6 to 8000 tons.

I remember working on two of 4000 ton press at a time. There is only four of them in the entire world, and we had two of them here in Milwaukee at A.O. Smith and I worked on those for about 20 years. I loved it. I enjoyed it because it was more than just your labor, you had to set them up and there was-- you had to process a lot of information in order to produce these. Because every time you produced a part, you know, tens of thousands of dollars went into that one part.

And so you had to be very careful and precise or concise on what it was in your measurements. And even setting it up and building the tools necessary to even create the stamp. Those had to be pieced together. And so there are blueprint 01:02:00reading all those things. I did that for about 20 years, I fell in love with doing that. It really was a trade into itself, but it was an A.O. Smith trade. You had to learning the skill set to do that, paid a lot of money.

And then towards the end of my time there I became a supervisor. So, basically, I started by doing a lot of office work and wrote a manual on how to do many different things, I became a trainer. So towards the end of my career at A.O. Smith I came off the floor so to speak and started doing many other things.

Robert Smith: What did-- How did African-American workers or when did African-American workers start to see better job opportunities? I'm assuming early on those job opportunities were probably limited to particular types of 01:03:00jobs for black workers. And then, you know, how that-- when did that start to change?

Earl Ingram Jr.: You know I think it started changing towards closing to the 1990s.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Because I remember in around 1988 I remember something happening in the world and America had been number one in industry. And all of a sudden we are starting to lose work. And the cry was that the Japanese had taken our jobs. And what had transpired at that point in time was something called the statistical process control.

There was a guy named Deming, I forget his first name after all these years. But Deming created a statistical process control in America in the 1960s, early 01:04:001960s. And America rejected him and thought that what he was doing was folly. And so what America do-- what we used to do is just produce. We weren't concerned about quality, just numbers.

You just stamp out as many pieces as you can, if you have junk throw it out. And then we'll have somebody repair that.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So Deming's statistical process control was a way to not produce scrap but to make sure that everything you produce was good.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Right? And because he was-- think ahead of time. You would do everything necessary to reduce scrap which would eventually reduce costs to your operation and many things were manageable. Well A.O. Smith and America kicked him out and he went to Japan. I remember when I was a kid and anything made Japan, any toy was made out of tin. I don't know about you, I bet you remember 01:05:00the days when Japan when they produce a Toyota car it was a joke?

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: OK. Deming changed all of that. His process changed all of that. And so all of a sudden like overnight Japan started producing quality. America never had to worry about quality because she was number one in industry all over the world. She could produce junk. Do you remember the Vega and Pintos? That's what America was producing because she was number one in industry. She was arrogant.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Whatever it is it doesn't matter. We're number one, and people would buy it. Well, once Japan turned things around and they started producing a better Toyota Corrolla, cheaper that could last longer and we kept producing the garbage that we kept producing now all of a sudden we were losing market share--

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: -- in the auto industry because we are producing junk. The 01:06:00American Motors Pacer, you know. So to make a long story short, in 1980 we started losing jobs. People started losing jobs in the auto industry. And United States had to take-- finally take a look at itself.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: When these jobs started disappearing these older guys white guys who had been in these great jobs were aging out.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And more and more African-Americans were now starting to work at A.O. Smith. And now, those jobs they had to fill. Many of the jobs they started filling was because my generation came in, my dad's generation for the most part those guys didn't have high school diplomas. They didn't have the education that we had, my generation. So my generation certainly could read 01:07:00better than many of my father and grandfather's generation.

They didn't-- they weren't afforded the opportunity where they came from to go to school and get a decent education. So, my generation was qualified to come in and take those jobs. I never forget you just have to measure precisely when you were producing this and I would be on one end and someone with the older guys should be on the other end and I would say, "OK, I'm going in." Here he is where I would got to tip of the take and the guys wanted back in and I asked them "What do you have down there?"

And the guy would say, "360 inches and a little bit." Well it wasn't his fault. They had never been taught that. I knew how to read fractions and [inaudible]. So that was required. And also at the same time technology was coming into 01:08:00fold, A.O. Smith had not been up to date technologically. And so as technology started coming in you had to be able to understand that to even operate the equipment that then used to be just manually operated.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: So many of us started getting more opportunities, my generation young black males who were here and born here in the North and in Milwaukee as oppose those who came here from the South like my dad when I was--

Robert Smith: And you have a couple more questions and then we'll wrap up. So, for changes in industry what we referred to as deindustrialization I'm going to see if I can give a synopsis and then I would like for you to give me some clarity.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Right.

Robert Smith: So early on even your dad's generation 1950s, '60s.

Earl Ingram Jr.: You're right.

Robert Smith: They start to get laid off but there's other employment around.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Right.

Robert Smith: So there is some changing going on even earlier.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Right.

Robert Smith: But by the time we get to the '80s in particular here in Milwaukee technology plays a key role. What was that?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Late '80s.

Robert Smith: Late '80s. What was Deming's statistical?

Earl Ingram Jr.: SSTP, statistical-- STC statistical-- statistical process control, SPC, statistical process control.

Robert Smith: So higher quality production around the world impacts US market share?

Earl Ingram Jr.: Correct. And also in Germany--

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: -- which was our number one competitor. The Germans never gave up the industry like we did here. And so they were always our major competitor globally.

Robert Smith: And we say gave up, did they kept their industries in then?

Earl Ingram Jr.: to Germany.

Robert Smith: OK.

Earl Ingram Jr.: If you look today, Germany has not done what America has done. America has found out her industry all over the world.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Why, it's cheaper labor. Why, because it is now the 01:10:00multi-national corporations. Back when I was a young person in Milwaukee, bridges spread now and Bradley, Alex Chalmers was A.O. Smith’s Hannahville, Harley Davidson. All of those companies, the founders of those companies the family members still had major involvement with those companies.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And so that's why this city, the streets were the cleanest. The sidewalks were the best. The parks were the best. Because those industries and those families were concerned about neighborhoods and being a part of the community.

Robert Smith: And they were in the neighborhood.

Earl Ingram Jr.: They were in the neighborhood and then the communities, and so the founders, the family members who were still at the helm. And so they had a connection to the city. And they were concerned about it and they pay taxes to make sure that the city was one of the best in the entire nation.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: People fail and they forget that. I don't' care if it was Weinberg, Seuss's, Geyser, Sealtest ice cream, Singer Sewing Machine, Patch Slit Miller, on and on and on. Everything was here and so homeowners did not have to pay high tax because corporations would take care of that. The school taxes were paid. And so we got-- the burden did not fall on property tax only, it's like they do now.

And so there was money flowing around. But that's all gone now and so-- because that industry has left and its wake. It's left the remains as I said early this is like a body-- when a body dies and the spirit leaves the body and everybody is, you know, hurt as we prepare for the funeral and the remains are being put 01:12:00in the ground.

The spirit is long since left the body.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: That's what's taking place in the city as what is taking place at the deindustrialization not just in Milwaukee but in Cleveland, in Kansas City, in Pittsburgh, in Detroit. You name it.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: But the difference is some of those other places, Cincinnati. The difference is some of those other places— Look at Pittsburgh and the steel and what took place in the early '70s and mid '70s and how Pittsburgh was just and Ohio was just devastated. But they came through it because they redefined themselves.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Many of these other cities redefined themselves. Why hasn't Milwaukee?

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: In all this time that this deindustrialization of this city is 01:13:00taking place, the real question is, why is Milwaukee failed to redefine itself after all these years? All this other similar sister cities that Milwaukee had. You know and when is that going to take place? Because if it doesn't take place, if Milwaukee has not redefined and I know right now since talking about the water.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: And that this is going to be the future. Well, when is that coming?

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: In the meantime, many who were in industry many like me. Many of my peers lost everything there. They lost their homes they lost their families like never been ever.

Robert Smith: Because of the industrial decline.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Yes. Never been able to find any job comfortable--

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: -- to what they were making at the time. You have to understand and back in those days we had guys who were making $100,000 a year in 01:14:00the '90s. Overtime, yes. But guys who couldn't read and write were making $100,000 a year consistently in A.O. Smith. And they were located in places like Holy Hill and Oconomowoc and Waukesha and-- because they certainly had the finances to do it.

They said, "Earl living next to bankers and people who own small corporations." But people started realizing how much money people are making, this is my own opinion.

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: When the truth got out to how much money we were actually making in an industry. There was this marketed effort. People are making too much money.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: When they started taking the blue collar jobs out of this city and out of this country nobody said a word not a peak. It didn't happen 01:15:00overnight. When that process was happening, nobody cried crocodile tears for the blue collar workers and their families. It was only when the white collar jobs associated with the blue collar jobs, the engineers.

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: The main managers, the brain thrust. When they started losing their jobs, people started complaining. When white collar jobs started leaving the shores people started complaining. But they allow all of that deindustrialization and the pain that it brought then the families that it destroyed and the communities that were disrupted and then our people today not a peep out of anybody.

That's the real story. That's the true story. Why didn't somebody say something?

Robert Smith: Yeah.

Earl Ingram Jr.: When the guts of the nation was being torn out by 01:16:00multi-national corporations who right now have over $3 trillion worth of unpatriated [phonetic]profits that they have made. The steel overseas waiting to come back here wants to tax rate its cut. That's the true story of this, right?

Robert Smith: Right.

Earl Ingram Jr.: But people don't, for the most part, want to even get into that dialogue, you know? They've traded families and communities for multi-national corporations and their profits.

Robert Smith: Yeah. I think we should stop right there.

Earl Ingram Jr.: OK.

Robert Smith: Thank you very much sir.

Earl Ingram Jr.: Thank you.

Robert Smith: Thank you.

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