Interview with Mark Stoler, June 11, 1974, Madison, Wisconsin

Segment Synopsis: Born in New York City in 1945 where he resided until 1966; came to Madison in 1966 to do graduate work in history at University of Wisconsin; left Madison in the fall of 1969 for a nine-month research trip; returned in May 1970 and stayed until August of that year. Received Ph.D. in June 1971; began teaching the following fall at the University of Vermont.

Segment Synopsis: In late 1968 or early 1969 informal meeting held at Joe Jackson's to discuss possibility of a radio station to play something other than the “garbage” then being played on Wisconsin radio. Many people who attended meeting interested in Folk Music, “Blues,” and Jazz.

Segment Synopsis: “It seemed to fit in with the political analysis of the University going on around the time” that students were not permitted to use the University station, even on rental basis.

Segment Synopsis: Earl Fessler, owner and general manager of WMFM, agreed to rent time during late night hours to “Up Against the Wall.” Price set at about $22.00 which included an engineer. Fessler aware of type of music “Up Against the Wall” would be playing.

Segment Synopsis: While Stoler associated with “Up Against the Wall,” Fessler would sometimes listen to make sure announcers observed FCC regulations regarding identification every thirty minutes, within two minutes of the hour and half hour; profanity on the air waves; etc.

Segment Synopsis: Derived from the “battle cry of '68” which was, “Up Against the Wall, Motherfucker”; program became “Up Against the wall FM.”

Segment Synopsis: “Up Against the Wall” initially supported from donations raised by giving concerts, dances, and picnics, and issuing one dollar subscriptions to students.

Segment Synopsis: Conflict not only regarding musical content, but political content as well. Organization open to question; in first few weeks program was aired on a day-by-day basis.

Segment Synopsis: About the time of the Mifflin Street Riot, which WMFM - “Up Against the Wall” covered, there was disagreement over how organized programming should be; resulted in several people leaving. Thereafter “Up Against the Wall” settled down to a regular schedule, broadcasting a couple nights a week, from 10:00 p.m. to 3:00 a.m.; included some coverage of important news events.

Segment Synopsis: Aimed for the University community, workers as well as students, in the Greater Madison area. Felt there existed a musical counterculture. Many shows broadcast from Mifflin Street Coop.

Segment Synopsis: Because a wide variety of music was included, WMFM sought to interest audience in several kinds of music. Although early organization chaotic, programming evolved into two nights of jazz, one night of blues, one of folk and rock.

Segment Synopsis: Basically the same group who organized “Up Against the Wall.” They included Joe Jackson, Jan Rothbard, Mark Rohrer, Mark Stoler, Barry Chiad, and other people who left. Joe Jackson did not run an entire show; served as “master of ceremonies,” opened his shop for meetings, and supplied his address for mail.

Segment Synopsis: Programmer's model depended on where in the United States they came from. Stoler's models were WBAI in New York, and WNEW in its early days. WBAI never settled problem of whether it was a talk show or a music show. WNEW almost straight music.

Segment Synopsis: Although generally went along lines of a straight music program, comments would be made at times about the Vietnam War. Sometimes a political show with music would be created; words of a song got message across. A belief that music in and of itself was revolutionary.

Segment Synopsis: WMFM wanted to expand programming but couldn't do so with contributions alone. Corporation advertising opposed. Compromise made to solicit advertising from “the right kinds of places,” such as “head shops,” sandal shops, counterculture stores.

Segment Synopsis: By consensus, programmers decided from whom they would solicit advertising. Announcers wrote the advertisements and read them live although format changed in August 1969.

Segment Synopsis: By August 1969, WMFM taking ads for “regular” stores, which resulted in big split among programmers.

Segment Synopsis: Personal contacts only revealed to Stoler who listened to show. However, not much learned this way; since people did not identify themselves fully over the air. The Daily Cardinal also wrote up some reviews of the show.

Segment Synopsis: WMFM the first radio station in Madison to play what was being played on New York and Chicago FM rock stations.

Segment Synopsis: Stoler played “everything under creation.” Blues included Reverend Gary Davis, Albert King, B. B. King, Luther Allison, Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, etc. Folk music included Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, Tom Paxton, Eric Anderson. Rock music included Eric Clapton, Crosby, Stills and Nash, and others. First in Madison to play Chicago Transit Authority. No station in Madison up to that time played such music.

Segment Synopsis: Private collections used at first; later, arrangement worked out with Discount Records (record store) to let WMFM use any albums in exchange for free advertising. Records used for evening program and then returned. As station became more established, record companies sent disks.

Segment Synopsis: “The biggest of all, the Jefferson Airplane,” as well as a lot of Grateful Dead, and Rolling Stones. Not the AM cuts.

Segment Synopsis: No payola-type pressure; announcers listened to albums at home and decided whether or not to play.

Segment Synopsis: If possibly objectionable record received, warnings on wrapper indicated which cuts were “not for air play.” If albums came from personal collection, announcers used own judgment, sometimes “sneaking something through.”

Segment Synopsis: No complaints from the FCC, although sometimes difficult to recite identification at 2:00 a.m.: “This is Up Against the Wall, FM, WMFM 104....”

Segment Synopsis: Fessler listened between 10 p.m. and midnight, would call and ask engineer to tape an entire show, if he didn't like something about the show.

Segment Synopsis: “A fairly diverse group.” Within the sphere of radical politics, everybody had their own interests, “with good doses of just craziness and anarchy thrown in.”

Segment Synopsis: At first Joe Jackson the only black member; later two others.

Segment Synopsis: Announcers first worked at WMFM for enjoyment only; later changed.

Segment Synopsis: Portions of show meant to jolt listeners out of what they were doing; attempts made to program based on what announcers thought they were doing. Stoler assumed, for instance, that on Friday nights at 11:00 p.m. people were getting stoned, so they'd play “soaring” music; at midnight they'd mellow it out with Blues. About 1 a.m., they'd play some “sex” music, and an hour later “crashing” music. Eventually realized they were creating a mythical person listening to the show, doing what they, the announcers, would rather have been doing. A general rule was not to play loud, screeching music at 3:00 a.m.

Segment Synopsis: Set is a group of songs running for about 20 minutes with no commercial break. Sets put together in various ways, either chronologically, by subject matter, or of same artist showing his progression on the same theme. Set should make some sort of musical sense.

Segment Synopsis: Freedom in content and length of sets but announcers required to break every 30 minutes for identification; later, had to include minimum number of advertisements per hour. Announcers somewhat comparable to historiographers in that they assemble other people's works.

Segment Synopsis: Stoler played political protest music on Memorial Day and Independence Day. Frequently announcers responded to current events and played appropriate music, in order to establish a bond with the listener.

Segment Synopsis: “Up Against the Wall” perhaps served as a model of counterculture radio for Radio Free Madison; however Radio Free Madison much “slicker” with soft-voiced announcers.

Segment Synopsis: Movement expressed in the music; playing the music a political act.

Segment Synopsis: “A tremendous kick at first.” Later, enthusiasm waned because he was unable to get feedback.

Segment Synopsis: “You've gotta start with Black Blues”: Chicago, Muddy Waters, Lightnin' Hopkins, etc. In White music, where Whites began playing Black music and adding their own brand of Country and Western, important contributors were Bill Haley and Elvis. That form died out in the 1950's, and British groups such as the Beatles and the Rolling Stones brought it back. The important change in lyrics and style was with Dylan, who influenced important groups such as the Beatles and the Rolling Stones.

Segment Synopsis: In retrospect, “not that much,” but was fun at the time. Although the music was revolutionary and did come across, what was forgotten was the “co-optation mechanism” which tamed the music. In the sixties there was an “incredible outburst of new forms both lyrically and musically.” Music no longer speaks to a group, and has become a “thing to do at cocktail parties.” “I'm reminded of the last line in Easy Rider and the last line in the Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test: 'We blew it, we blew it, we blew it.'”