Interview with Robert Akamatsu, December 16, 1981, Madison, Wisconsin

Partial Transcript: Born in Alameda, California, September 14, 1918. Graduated from the University of California-Berkeley. From 1940-1942 did graduate work at the University of California and worked part-time at the University of California YMCA.

Partial Transcript: Relocated to Topaz, Utah, where they stayed approximately 2 1/2 years. During that time, Akamatsu and his wife were able to get passes to visit her family, located in Gila Bend, Arizona.

Partial Transcript: Companies in the vicinity needed workers. Akamatsu and others from the camp would go to Spanish Fork, Utah, and work. He worked for various companies, including California Packing Corporation, a canning company run by Del Monte.

Partial Transcript: A group went north to Idaho with the idea of setting up a model farm. However, no one in the group had any kind of an agricultural background; the majority of people at the Topaz relocation center had come from urban areas.

Partial Transcript: There didn't seem to be too much concern about potential security risks; “...it didn't matter, just so you were willing to go....” Akamatsu doesn't know how much checking was done on people. War Relocation Authority did have personnel in various areas, however, and Akamatsu assumes that they were watched.

Partial Transcript: The people lived much like migrant workers: in tents, with a centralized eating facility. There were Mexican workers living in Topaz.

Partial Transcript: Akamatsu was married shortly before the evacuation, but his wife was not allowed to accompany him to the temporary relocation center. It was for men only.

Partial Transcript: His brother went to Salt Lake City to work in a hospital. Akamatsu suspects “that all these job opportunities, in the main, were areas where there wasn't any help available.” When not working at the canning company, Akamatsu did such work as picking peaches and beans, or harvesting sugar beets, all of which was hard work. “I still dream about it.”

Partial Transcript: He was a scale man; he weighed the trucks as they came in with merchandise. He was able to land this “plush” job because, while in camp, he had worked as office manager for the War Relocation Authority man who headed the employment office. Most of the Japanese-Americans working at the canning company loaded freight cars. None of them worked the production line; that was reserved for Caucasians. There were two crews, a day and a night. Akamatsu worked with the latter, which consisted of young, eager fellows who far out-produced the day crew.

Partial Transcript: Despite the fact that most of the people, at least in Akamatsu's group, had come from urban areas, people on the outside considered the Japanese-Americans to be excellent farmers; word was they had made the desert bloom in California. Their help was sought for such things as harvesting, although with reservation. In that respect, the Japanese-Americans were much like the Chicanos.

Partial Transcript: This farmer had had a large operation in California. He had voluntarily evacuated to Spanish Fork, taking his entire operation with him. He would bring in his produce in semi-trucks.

Partial Transcript: They both were immigrants. His father had come to the United States first; he was in San Francisco during the 1906 earthquake. His mother did not arrive until about 1919. She had heard about Akamatsu's father through a relative of hers who had visited America. His father became a gardener, working for people in the Alameda area. When he first started, his only means of transportation was a bicycle, and he carried all of his equipment, including a lawn mower, on his shoulders. The children were expected to help him both after school and on Saturdays; Akamatsu hated it. His father worked regularly during the Depression. His mother had gone to high school in Japan; a rather unusual thing for a Japanese woman. Although most immigrant Japanese women in the Alameda area became full-time domestics, Akamatsu's mother did not work until the children were well into high school; she felt that she should be at home with them. She eventually did go to work as a domestic, but only on a part-time basis. She continued to work until she was about 80.

Partial Transcript: His mother wanted to be able to give each of her four grandchildren $1,000 for when they married, money that she herself had earned working part-time. Akamatsu continues to hold on to the $2,000 earmarked for his two sons, neither of whom has yet married; one son is age 37, the other 32.

Partial Transcript: His brother became a landscape architect in New York, but he died of cancer when he was 28. Akamatsu also has a sister.

Partial Transcript: He and his wife met at a church conference in Pasadena; they were paired during a grand march which was part of a mixer. They decided to marry despite the impending evacuation since his family was being sent to Utah; hers to Arizona. Four days after the wedding, Akamatsu was sent to the temporary relocation center--a racetrack stable.

Partial Transcript: The whole relocation process took about three weeks. Orders were to bring bedding and whatever could be carried. Those who arrived earliest lacked many necessities and wrote others, cautioning them to bring certain items. Akamatsu's wife lived in Santa Barbara and had to buy a heavier coat. Caucasian friends would send needed items to the camp. There was a central mess hall but most preferred to take their food back to family quarters.

Partial Transcript: Some people had as little as 24 hours to settle their affairs. Because Alameda was considered a military zone, Akamatsu's parents, as aliens, had to move to Oakland even before the evacuation to camp. Akamatsu and his brother, as citizens, remained in Alameda and maintained the family home and their father's gardening business. When evacuation occurred, the government offered to store belongings at the owners' risk. “We didn't have that much faith in our government at that time to turn everything over to them.” Stored some things at a church, some in the basement of their house. Able to rent the house, but some people had to sell homes at a loss. Sold car and truck. Belongings remained safe, but his wife's family's things, stored in their garage, were ransacked.

Partial Transcript: At first his whole family, including his wife, had to share the same very small quarters. “Essentially an Army camp” surrounded by barbed wire fence and guard towers. Evacuees built a high school in the center of the camp.

Partial Transcript: Japanese-Americans were generally well educated, largely because of the low tuition in the California state university system, but many professional and skilled occupations were closed to them before World War II. Akamatsu had done graduate work in history and social work, even though pursuit of the latter would have been a dead end occupationally in the pre-war period.

Partial Transcript: The Topaz camp had a population of about 10,000, making it the second or third largest town in Utah. Evacuees did almost everything to run the camp, thus being able to pursue occupations closed to them on the outside. Built a high school, even though building trades generally closed to Japanese-Americans on the outside. One friend became a policeman in camp so he could get outside the compound and search for arrowheads. “If they needed real police work, they had to rely on the Army.”

Partial Transcript: Central dining hall and laundry area. Frame and tarpaper structure. Six apartments per building. No ceilings at first; pot belly stove; Army cots.

Partial Transcript: First part was spent by himself in a stable where Japanese-Americans were held prior to relocation. Second part spent in a one-room apartment with his family at Topaz.

Partial Transcript: Government provided food and shelter; inmates were paid $8 to $16 per month for their work in the camp. Cooperative store in camp, but mail order was used quite often. People his father gardened for sent the Akamatsu family needed items.

Partial Transcript: Had been an elementary school teacher in Japan. Chose to do carpentry work in the camp and also did carpentry after release.

Partial Transcript: The Army provided supplies and supervision, but the building, including a basketball gymnasium, was actually built by people who largely had no prior construction experience.

Partial Transcript: Most “aliens” were not aliens by choice. “Aliens” could not own property in California. Akamatsu's parents had to buy their home in his name when he was only about 12 because he was a citizen.

Partial Transcript: Many wanted to visit Japan after the war. He finally took his mother there in the fall of 1979. Vast changes in her home town.

Partial Transcript: While many probably had come to the United States intending to return to Japan, most had become assimilated, and their loyalty during World War II was to the United States. They resented the loyalty oath (to renounce the Emperor) because no other group of people were required to renounce their old country rulers. There were some who were pro-Japan, like those who intended to return and those who had sent their children to Japan for education.

Partial Transcript: He had filed for a CO when he first registered for the draft in the late 1930s. He renewed this classification when the government began to solicit loyalty oaths and soldiers from the relocation centers. This was not a popular position at all. “If you were to ask me now, I'm not so sure at this point whether I would feel positive about my conscientious objection.”

Partial Transcript: He wanted to visit his home. A group of University of California students, affiliated with the YMCA Akamatsu had worked for, visited camp as part of an educational, good-will visit. Although the West Coast was still closed, Akamatsu persuaded the Army to let him accompany the students back to California. While in Alameda area, he visited a Jewish woman his father had worked for. Upon seeing him, she gave him a hug, which did not mean very much to him at the time. Ultimately, Akamatsu decided not to return to California permanently.

Partial Transcript: The presence of the university and the state capitol afforded educational and other opportunities, and Akamatsu felt it would be a good place to raise children. Only in the last four or five years has he discovered that, because of racism, “things weren't all that hot in Madison for my son.”

Partial Transcript: Akamatsu decided to get his money's worth, so he traveled east, visited Madison, and continued on to New York to visit his brother, who warned him that Madison had a humid climate. Akamatsu was not familiar with humidity or hard water.

Partial Transcript: The plan was to find housing and a job, then send for his family.

Partial Transcript: More than one place he found to live would not accept him. He did not have the required qualifications for many jobs and could not get a job with the state because he was not a resident.

Partial Transcript: A Japanese-American man left the store to return to school. Management was under the illusion Akamatsu would be a good produce man, but he never worked produce. After he began working there, there were a few instances of customers complaining about his presence, but the store manager and a butcher defended his rights.

Partial Transcript: Worked the longest at the East Washington Avenue store. “Supervising management was essentially the same” before and after Piggly Wiggly became Eagle.

Partial Transcript: The last tie tack Akamatsu received has seven diamonds on it.

Partial Transcript: He began by stocking shelves. He had no desire to be a produce clerk. Because of his California background, however, he was familiar with some of the produce coming into the store which the produce clerks had not seen before.

Partial Transcript: Going from manually unloading deliveries to using conveyor belts. Palletized groceries. Computerization of ordering procedure.

Partial Transcript: Store was open 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. six days a week; no evening work or Sunday work. However, “if there was work to be done, they expected you to stick around....” Deliveries were unloaded and shelves were stocked during the regular work day.

Partial Transcript: Primitive compared to today. Method of marking the price on the merchandise. Hauling stock into the store. Shopping carts.

Partial Transcript: At the Piggly Wiggly store in which Akamatsu worked, there were initially three or four. Of the three Piggly Wiggly stores in Madison at the time, the East Washington Avenue store, with seven or eight checkout counters, was the largest. All three of the stores had the basic characteristics of a self-service supermarket.

Partial Transcript: It was not actually a part of the checkout counter. It was only used when the store was busy; it was quite a production and very fast.

Partial Transcript: It was difficult to get time off, especially to look for another job, as Akamatsu occasionally tried to do. He does remember taking a couple of civil service tests; “I must have given some song and dance in order to get off a couple hours.”

Partial Transcript: One week; two weeks required a great amount of seniority.

Partial Transcript: Akamatsu remembers the employees attempting to unionize themselves before the Retail Clerks International Association (RCIA) was much of a factor in town. The meat cutters/butchers were already unionized, and there was a great contrast in working conditions between meat cutters and clerks.

Partial Transcript: Their situation is now rather precarious with the increase in mechanization. Ultimately, the meat cutters could go the way of the clerks: one really doesn't have to know all that much, just where to put the merchandise.

Partial Transcript: With its trend toward computer check out, all that will be required is someone to unload the truck and place the merchandise on the shelves. No ordering or price marking will be necessary.

Partial Transcript: General rule is that the clerk in charge of a specific department does the ordering; or the stock chief or an assistant.

Partial Transcript: Used to be once a week, if lucky. Now Eagle receives deliveries at least two or three times a week. Overnight ordering.

Partial Transcript: An attempt at self-unionization was made between the late 1940s and the late 1950s. They tried to organize themselves either as an independent union or as part of the Amalgamated Meat Cutters and Butcher Workmen (AMC&BW). All three of the Madison Piggly Wiggly stores were involved in the attempt. The union lost the election by a small margin because the management got the office personnel involved in the voting, and they voted against. Akamatsu was the only one who attended the union meeting the night of the election.

Partial Transcript: Piggly Wiggly was one of the last to be organized, probably because the company was small; therefore, management was influential. Employees of Piggly Wiggly knew who the president of the company was. Also, Piggly Wiggly had an office in Madison.

Partial Transcript: Piggly Wiggly had both a profit-sharing plan and a pension plan. Management was personally involved.

Partial Transcript: With the union, everything was in “black and white”; 40-hour week, vacations, work schedules. Although stores began to be open both at night and on Sundays, without the union there would not have been any overtime, Sunday or holiday pay. Many of the provisions evolved over the years.

Partial Transcript: One, an active member, was transferred many times and finally “squeezed out.” Another, who had helped organize Piggly Wiggly, later worked against the union in an unorganized store.

Partial Transcript: Unorganized stores, in the long run, have a detrimental effect on union stores. The RCIA may well be faced with takeaway demands in the near future.

Partial Transcript: Did not have much store experience at the time. Meant more money, but longer hours.

Partial Transcript: In the past, women employees mainly ran the cash registers and did related work. They did not do any heavy lifting. If they stocked shelves, they would only stock lighter items. Changes came with time and by choice. Women began working on the night stock crew and as baggers and carry outs. They also occasionally help to unload deliveries.

Partial Transcript: Very few checkers are full-time. Management prefers using part-time workers because it is cheaper; cheaper fringe benefits, low seniority. Department and discount stores operate almost entirely with part-time workers, who are anxious to work and thus are willing to work the rotten hours. Since many of these kinds of stores are non-union, the pay scale is much lower.

Partial Transcript: Akamatsu began working for $35 a week; when he quit, he was making about $400 a week. In the Eagle and Piggly Wiggly chains, there is now an impersonal corporation. The president used to visit the stores and, even though he was not well liked, he knew your name, and that meant something to the employees. Hours, vacation time have changed. Personal holidays and sick leave are now available. At the end of a year, an employee may be paid for sick leave not taken.

Partial Transcript: There is a lot more pressure now and fewer employees. The nature of the relationship between employee and customer has changed. The work is faster now and therefore harder.