Interview with Phyllis Brown and Sally Brown Winter, November 24, 2004, Racine, Wisconsin

Partial Transcript: Andy Muchin interviews Phyllis Brown of Evanston and her daughter Sally Brown Winter on November 24, 2004 in the Racine synagogue.

Partial Transcript: Phyllis was born in Appleton, Wisconsin. She moved to Racine, Wisconsin when she was five. She also resided in Columbus, Ohio for 14 years right after she got married. Phyllis' parent's were named Edward Shauvers and Fanny Goldin. Fanny was from Kaukauna, Wisconsin. Edward and his seven brothers were from Racine. The first Shauvers to come to Racine were her grandfather, father, and her father's brothers, Sam and Frank.

Partial Transcript: Phyllis' parents were Edward Shauvers and Fanny Goldin. Edward was from Racine and Fanny was from Kaukauna. Edward was one of seven brothers and they all lived in Racine. The first Shauvers to come to Racine were Phyllis' grandfather and his two oldest sons, Sam and Frank. They came in the early 1900's from Poland, and then sent for the rest of the family. Their last name was changed upon arrival in America. Phyllis' dad was 8 or 9 when he came to America. Phyllis' grandmother (paternal) died in childbirth after having seven boys. After her grandmother's death, Phyllis' grandfather married a cousin that the family affectionately called Tanta. Phyllis' grandfather was an imposing man who always wore a black kippah. He gave the grandkids dimes for Hanukkah. Phyllis' grandfather (David Shauver) loved America. He helped bring a lot of people to America, Jews and Gentiles. In Poland, he had a dirt floor house and struggled to get land. In America, he had a clean house and freedom. In Poland, David was in the cattle business and continued that business in Racine. He only worked until his mid forties. He sold cattle to the Russian army, and he had a little bit of land in Europe. However, his two sons were about to be taken into the army so they fled to America. David knew English so well. Whenever anyone spoke Yiddish, he said "speak English" because he was so proud to be an American.

Partial Transcript: Phyllis' mother and father got married in either Appleton or Kaukauna. When the depression hit, they moved around Wisconsin trying to make a living. Phyllis' father Edward had a store in Madison and lost the store due to the depression. They returned to Racine and moved in to a flat above Phyllis' grandparents. Phyllis was five when she moved to Racine.

Partial Transcript: A couple of the brothers were lawyers, some were in cattle. Phyllis' father went into business, and one was in real estate. The whole family got together as much as they could. Phyllis' Dad sold soda in the taverns and had to drink alcohol in the morning when he made the business deals at the taverns. He realized that the soda business was not for him. Phyllis' mother got a job at JC Penneys. They did not hire Jews, but Phyllis' mother had grey blue eyes and they did not realize she was Jewish so they hired her. After the depression, Phyllis' mother and father opened a dime store on Douglas Avenue called "Five to a Dollar Store." They were so thrilled they could support their family with the store. There is a family rumor that Fanny sold her wedding ring to fund the store. Phyllis' describes her parents as very in love.

Partial Transcript: Fanny and Edward met somewhere near the Fox River Valley area at a Jewish Dance Hall. Edward fell in love with Fanny, and her family. Edward owned a dance hall, but sold it after he and Fanny married. Edward also opened a business in Appleton, a general store. Edward had a successful business in Milwaukee, but had to sell it back to the previous owner. Then, Edward moved to Madison with his family where he had a store until it went under due to the depression. In the 1950's he had to close his dime store in Racine due to his health. During the war years, it was difficult to find workers for their stores due to the amount of people that worked in factories.

Partial Transcript: Fanny and Edward had a lot of friends. After dinner, they would go out and visit friends. They would play cards, and chat with their close friends in the evenings. Most of their friends were Jewish.

Partial Transcript: Phyllis' family kept kosher. They were not orthodox, but tried to remain religiously observant. Edward worked on Saturdays, but not on the high holidays. During the war Edward would bring packages of kettles, dishes, and clothing to Jewish survivors from Europe. The families from Europe settled in America. Mr. Gordon had a store on state street and sold them kosher meat during the 1940's. Later, Phyllis' parents ordered their meat from Milwaukee.

Partial Transcript: At one time in Racine there was an orthodox and conservative synagogue.

Partial Transcript: Phyllis' husband was involved in Jewish organizations. During the 1960's, wandering Jews would go to Phyllis' husband for money. Phyllis' family would help Jewish people in need.

Partial Transcript: Phyllis knew Rabbi Cohen. When Phyllis came to Racine in 1962, Phyllis met Rabbi Cohen who she described as a great teacher and scholar. Rabbi Cohen passed away a few weeks after Phyllis' son's Bar Mitzvah. Rabbi Cohen's passing was a huge loss to the community of Racine. Other Rabbi's in Wisconsin referred to Rabbi Cohen's teachings. He had a melodic, wonderful voice. Morris Kauffman was a significant synagogue leader who sold things around the neighborhood. He had a wonderful wife named Sadie. Morris led services at the synagogue and had a beautiful European voice.

Partial Transcript: There six people in Sally's religious school class. Sally says she was difficult in synagogue school. She was a talker, and while she loved learning about her heritage she struggled to pay attention in school. Sally gained a sense of spirituality through the services. Sally learned Hebrew in her synagogue classes. She was at the top of her class. She can read Hebrew very easily and attributes her success in learning Hebrew to the synagogue services and Rabbi Cohen.

Partial Transcript: Sally lived in Racine from aged nine until she graduated high school. Sally's family growing up was embarrassed to be Jewish, but she had a strong Jewish identity. Sally's mom and dad always encouraged learning about their Jewish identity. She never wanted to be not Jewish, but her cousins felt differently. Sally's parents gave her the message that she was to go onto the University of Wisconsin Madison and meet other Jewish people. Phyllis explains what it means to be Jewish and says while she appreciates holidays like Christmas, Jews are lucky that they do not have to be bothered with all of the work that goes along with the season. Sally was very disappointed when she moved to Racine and was around her family, but they wanted to completely assimilate and forgo their Jewish heritage. Sally embraced being Jewish and did not want to pretend she was not Jewish.

Partial Transcript: Sally experienced antisemitism growing up. She had a non-Jewish boyfriend when she was in tenth or eleventh grade. They were in economics class and the economics teacher was also the pole vaulting coach. Sally was friends with the best pole vaulter, and he would make comments to Sally about how she shouldn't talk to him because she was Jewish. One day, in economics class he told a discriminating joke about Jews and Sally's boyfriend stood up for her and called him out. Sally was in high school in the late 1960's. Students would pound on Sally's locker, make jokes about her being "tight," and even faced discrimination from her school counselor.

Partial Transcript: Phyllis encountered a tremendous amount of antisemitism. In high school, a student made antisemitic remarks and her teacher stood up for her. She graduated high school in 1947. After she got married, her and her husband tried to get an apartment in Columbus, Ohio. No landlord would rent to them because they were Jewish. A rabbi in town knew a Jewish man who built apartments, and secured them one of the apartments. They joined that rabbi's synagogue. Eventually, they tried to buy a house in Columbus and they were told that in order to buy a house, they had to join a church. In Racine, they also encountered difficulties buying a house because they were Jewish.

Partial Transcript: During the great depression, Phyllis' father in law could not get a job unless he shortened his name from Brownstein to Brown. He was a buyer, and in order for him to make a deal he had to use the name Brown so major department stores would not know he is Jewish. However, he refused and did not wish to change his name. When he went into the army, he was forced to change his name to Brown on the army documents. Phyllis' father in law was from Chicago,and he moved to Racine to find work. Phyllis' father and her husband's father had sixth and eighth grade eductions and managed to be incredibly successful. She describes them as brilliant men. Her father made his money in only 7 years. Another wonderful trait that Phyllis' father and father and law possessed is a complete adoration for their wives. Phyllis found it so sweet.

Partial Transcript: Phyllis thinks Wisconsin has a lot of antisemitism, and the churches help promote it. In Door County, there were signs that said "Jews and dogs not allowed." In Janesville, there was a klan community. Phyllis describes how she still had wonderful gentile friends who would not hesitate to take her in should she need it. Phyllis' father did not like to discuss antisemitism, and had a childhood friend that was like a brother to him who he never spoke to again after he heard the friend make an antisemitic remark. Phyllis did interfaith work at the Catholic Church and an archbishop came from Milwaukee and made incredibly antisemitic remarks and nobody stood up for Phyllis when he was speaking. Rabbi Cohen helped Phyllis and the congregation deal with encountering antisemitism from the community.

Partial Transcript: Phyllis was president of the sisterhood, and her husband was president at the synagogue. Phyllis was also active in Columbus Jewish community. Phyllis was incredibly active in the Racine Jewish community and whenever she was asked to do work outside of the Jewish community, she declined because there was enough gentiles to help. Phyllis lost her daughter, and had to become even more active to remain busy. Phyllis was president of the sisterhood in the late 1960's. There were over 100 women in the sisterhood. She planned different card parties, dinners, and entertainment. Phyllis felt she was really ambitious while president. She hosted sales, and Jews and gentiles would buy the items. Another event was the Day of Judaism, which was a learning experience for gentile community members and Jewish community members. Different Jewish items were on display, and they served them a free lunch and showed them what a shabbat table looked like. Their only complaint was that they did not serve noodle kugel. Phyllis was chair of the gift shop. B'nai B'rith was not very active by the time Phyllis came. Phyllis was also very active in Hadassah. She became president, and her mother was given a plaque for her commitment to the organization. Their base fundraiser was selling cards.

Partial Transcript: Sally had a B'nai B'rith Youth Organization chapter in Racine. It was combined. They had meetings every month and activities. They did a lot of things with people from Madison, and went to a convention in Milwaukee every year. It was called the Winter Regional Convention. There were 40 kids in the Racine chapter. Sally was a treasurer one year, and secretary one year. She really enjoyed it. The same 15 kids went to all of the events.

Partial Transcript: After college, Sally moved to Israel for a year and got married when she was over there. She thinks it would have been an amazing opportunity for her to go to Israel in high school.

Partial Transcript: Sally felt it was a positive for her to be Jewish growing up. Her friends thought it was great that she was Jewish, and it made her feel special, and a little different in a good way. There were some negatives, but because Sally developed a strong Jewish identity she feels her experiences were largely positive. Phyllis had so much tragedy in Racine, that it is hard to think of her time in Racine as wholly positive. She enjoyed living in Racine and the synagogue community but still feels the losses of her father and daughter there. Phyllis lives in Chicago now, and thinks that it is heaven. There is a lot available for Jewish seniors in Chicago.