Interview with J. Russell Wheeler, July 31, 1963, Milwaukee, Wisconsin

THELEN: This is David Thelen. We are recording Mr. J. Russell Wheeler at his home on Marilyn Street in Milwaukee, on July 31, 1963.

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WHEELER: I sat in the bow and I thought that was [inaudible], and we sat and he hooked the fish, we were in the lake. We hadn't got into the river yet, and suddenly I turned around, and the boat tipped over, and my fishing box and all my tackle went to the bottom, and he had a fish on, and I was turning around to catch [inaudible], he got a fish on it, and he got the rod back, but the fish was gone.

THELEN: Was this Dean Russell?

WHEELER: What?

THELEN: Was this Dean Russell who caught the fish?

WHEELER: No, my son. Dean was in one boat, and his son and I was in a boat with [inaudible] both paddling canoe.

THELEN: I see.

WHEELER: And my son was paddling the canoe, and I was at the bow temporarily, and he had been casting and he got a fish on, and he yelled "I've got one!" And that's when I turned around, you know, did just the darn thing that I told him not to do, and tipped the thing over. We all went into the water and got soaked, and we had to hang our clothes on the line in front of the fire. That night, we slept out in the open air, [inaudible] but we got our decking all wet and we had to dry that out. Oh, we had the best time, I'd like to do it again.

THELEN: Well, I suppose many people have asked you about Mr.--about Louis Sullivan, about how he came to design the bank in Columbus.

WHEELER: Yes, I could tell you a little sketch on it. My wife [inaudible] she's a former schoolteacher and kindergarten teacher, especially for the Harrison School in Chicago, which is now the Northland Educational Institution in Medicine. And she took a great liking to Sullivan and Sullivan took a great liking to her, and they were both [inaudible], they were both interested in art, artist--artistic stuff. I was a businessman, you know, and I didn't know whether 00:03:00I wanted to employ him or not. But I went down with her and called on him in Chicago in his office, and he talked to me a while and wanted to know things about how [inaudible]. And he said, "Well, I'll tell you what. If you pay my expenses to [inaudible]." I'm the one who said to him, I said, "I don't think I can afford to hire you," I said that. And he said, "Well, you pay my expenses up to Columbus and I'll go up and look things over and stay overnight, and then you can make the decision if you want to employ me."

So I did. We came back, and I showed him the lot, and I talked to him about my 00:04:00bank and what my ambition was and so forth. I was intensely interested in agriculture at the time. I felt that we could help the farmers to make more money and [inaudible], and it would be a good thing for the bank as well as them. And I preached that. I was in the [inaudible] a member of the Agriculture Commission of the American Bankers Association, and I was also chairman of the Wisconsin Agricultural Committee of the Wisconsin Bank Association. And I tried to infer with him, to tell him what I was trying to do in helping the farmer and perhaps I thought that we're not trying to teach the farmer banking 'cause we 00:05:00are bankers, not farmers. But, we'd like [inaudible] people that understand farming and chemistry and rotates the crops and so forth. We are trying to get classes in this part of [inaudible] in school, and Columbus and Dean Russell was very close to me through all this, and I'm going to talk, ramble a little bit, and you can sort out what you want.

One day I said, "I'm going to Madison," and my wife says, "What are you going to do in Madison?" And I says, "I'm going over there to make a talk to the county agents and we are going to meet over at the University." "Well, what are you going to talk about?" I said, "I am going to talk about who killed that bull." And she says, "What do you know about [inaudible]?" [laughter] I had quite a talk with the--just the same with them, and they knew that I knew something 00:06:00about who killed that bull before I got through. And I had a good talk, and he, and he-- Don't repeat this, or I won't make this statement.

THELEN: No, go ahead.

WHEELER: Well, [inaudible] The Dean says to me, he came in while I was making my oration. When he got through and he came up and he says, "Hey, J. R.," he called me J. R., "Hey, J. R., we're going to run you for Governor." I says, "No you're not. I'm not competent to be Governor and I don't want it anyway." And well, he says, "And that's the way." I was very enthusiastic in the thing and telling the county agents what we really needed.

Well, now to get back to Sullivan. Sullivan came up and that night we had a nice 00:07:00[inaudible] dance and getting-together, and I didn't want to miss it. He said, "You take your wife and go on." It was a hot [inaudible] in this part of river, and [inaudible] "You take your wife along, and I want to do some sketching here anyway." And so we left him. When we got back I found the sketch that he'd drawn [inaudible] the bank--[inaudible] wait a minute.

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WHEELER: [inaudible] sketch, and I looked at it and my wife was crazy about it right away. [inaudible] I said, "I don't know if we want it or not." I said, "My 00:08:00goodness, [inaudible] that are here don't harmonize." And well, she said, "It does; it'll help people use better architecture [inaudible]" and so forth. She said, "Talk with Sullivan," and so we finally decided to have him and we got him.

THELEN: Was it that sketch that he showed you, roughly the same sketch that later came, that later came to be the bank?

WHEELER: Oh, yes, very little difference in it. [inaudible] Yes, there was one change I'll tell you about. You'll notice in the building there's some [inaudible] lions on the side of the building, [inaudible] and he had to, was going to have 00:09:00a statuary lion on each side of the desk opposite the tellers' windows, and they'd go up there, they'd stand between these two lions and sign their check, and I made him cut that out. I said, "No, we can't have that. It would scare people to death," and I said, "anyway it is preposterous. We don't want it." I have always thought I'm very, very sorry that I didn't let him have his way. The only other thing was the construction of the vault. He was going to have a lot of steel rail hauled in, and it would have been a tremendous expensive job to rebuild that vault, and I didn't want that. But we put in an electric alarm system anyway, and it is still there, same thing, I think. [inaudible]

But I used to have--let's go on a little and elaborate a little more. I used to go to Milwaukee once in a while early in the morning. I rushed out one morning and I thought I didn't have any money in my pocket. And I rushed in [inaudible], and my God, the burglar alarm went off and I was scared stiff. I come out, rushed out the front door and opened the door, somebody would see me in broad daylight and wouldn't take a shot at me. But we got over that, and next day my competitor Fred Chadbourne, at the First National Bank, he came crawling in says, "Anything we can do for you today to be helpful?" We were great chums either way, if we were competitors. Well anyway, then he took that, he took 00:11:00those plans and he went back and he was supposed to have a skylight over the building. The whole ceiling would be a big skylight, and it would cost too much, and I wouldn't let him build it, so other than that, it was built the way he planned it. And there's beautiful windows on the broadway, you know [inaudible]. But they discontinued that after a while. But they are beautiful and some of the farmers wanted to know if I was building a church.

THELEN: You mean when it was being built? When it was in the process of being built, 00:12:00and they thought, halfway up, they'd say, "What are you building there, a church?"

WHEELER: Yes. The fella that built it, the head mason, head man was a fella from Iowa, and while in the process of it he came out of the bank and he said, "Say, these fellas, they can't lay brick." He said, "They can't lay brick." He says, "I could lay five times as much brick as they lay," and he says, "If you let me teach them and instruct them into laying this brick, we'll lay a lot more brick than the other way," and so I said, "Go to it." So, he did, he taught them how to lay brick. It was after, I recall, split paving brick, the outside walls--when that brick was delivered, Sullivan gave them instructions. He said, 00:13:00"I don't want any sorting of this brick, I want to get it out of the pile just as it comes and leave it in. Don't try to match anything, just lay it." He said that, "This is going to be an oriental rug."

THELEN: He said the wall was going to be an oriental rug?

WHEELER: What?

THELEN: You said he said that the wall was going to be an oriental rug?

WHEELER: Well, [inaudible] he said it would be like an oriental rug [inaudible] picked out [inaudible]. I don't think there was any other drastic thing that was said there. I made one statement a while ago [inaudible]. I was walking up a fairly distant [inaudible] I thought, and I said to him, "You know, this is costing a 00:14:00lot of money. I don't know how you--I'm going to go broke," and he says, "Oh no, what difference does it make." He says, "You have got the only Sullivan building in Wisconsin. --Bank building in Wisconsin."

THELEN: Was he joking?

WHEELER: I tell you, I said that to my wife and she said, "Well, what of it, he knows what he is talking about."

THELEN: Well, do you think he was joking, or do you think he really meant it?

WHEELER: No, I think he was perfectly serious about it. He thought that I was getting something of great value because he was the architect, because he had originality and he was a great architect, no question about that. He knew it and that's what my wife said, "When a man is a great architect like that, he knows what he is and he has a right to think that."

THELEN: Well, now he stayed some time in your home, didn't he? Did he stay some time in your home?

WHEELER: Oh, I would say yes; he stayed two, three days, maybe. He supervised. He wanted to be--have it right and I think he went back to Chicago and then came back again. I am not clear about that, but he didn't spend a great deal of time there. But he spent several days, but I really think what he came for was, my wife is a very keen little woman and she admired his artistic talk, and we had seen the building. It was constructed somewhere else, and she would talk to me 00:16:00and [inaudible] But I got a picture of that building. Well, I visited the, I visited several [inaudible]. I went to visit the one at Winona [inaudible].

THELEN: In Minnesota? The bank he built in Minnesota?

WHEELER: [inaudible]

THELEN: Owatonna?

WHEELER: [inaudible] What?

THELEN: Owatonna, you mean? [mispronouncing Owatonna]

WHEELER: No, that isn't it.

THELEN: It's the bank he built in Minnesota?

WHEELER: Yes, it--the bank, that's what the University of Minnesota was raving about. So was I, but he didn't know that, but that's really why I really employed him, 00:17:00because that bank is just beautiful. That was some bank, beautiful. By far and away ahead of anything else [inaudible]. Well, he called me, he called us about this bank. Well, he said, "You have a jewel box, is what this is. I noticed in your appointment [inaudible]." He called all country banks a jewel box, and I didn't know that; he called this a jewel box [inaudible]. Well, I went down to Sidney, Iowa, saw a bank down there. And I went to New Jersey too. And anyway, I 00:18:00visited at least two or three banks before I [inaudible], and I made up my mind that, I was afraid that it was too garish. People would think I was trying to push something--the other bank had built a Masonic temple [inaudible].

THELEN: What did he say about the other banks?

WHEELER: Oh, he didn't say anything about the other banks, nothing--nothing at all. He did say something about the Capitol. We took him over to dinner one day, over there, and [inaudible] Frank Lloyd Wright, and Frank Lloyd has his wife there. 00:19:00And we didn't take him to dinner with us that day and my wife was quite provoked about it, but I had a reason why I didn't want to do it. If we'd been alone [inaudible] it would have been all right; but Frank Lloyd Wright said to me, he said, "It is wonderful for you; I don't know whether you know it, but it is a wonderful thing. [inaudible]" He said, "The master is a great man," he called him the master, and I began to appreciate him before I got through. But he was a socialistic type of fellow.

THELEN: Socialistic?

WHEELER: Quite so, and I don't think he ever had anything to do with the Socialists particularly, but he had the socialist idea in his mind, and my wife was quite that way herself, and I couldn't stand for the stuff. I'm anything but a socialist.

THELEN: You mean he thought the government should own industry and [inaudible]

WHEELER: What?

THELEN: Did Sullivan think the government should own industry and that type of thing?

WHEELER: No, I don't think so. No, but I think he thought that a lot of the enterprises, private enterprises--if it happened that they were organized socialistically by the people instead of by a few individuals, that it would be 00:21:00better for the general welfare. I don't agree with him, but [inaudible] I know now he is wrong about that. You've got to have a great head. You come to a situation, we're talking--we're talking about business, institutions. And if you really have a great institution, there's at least one man as the dominating factor, and he made that institution just as my grandfather made this bank, Farmer and Merchants Bank. They told me the other day that the building was a monument to me. I said, "That is very kind of you," since then they had 00:22:00appointed Bud Thomas' son as an agricultural department of the bank, and they sent it [inaudible], and I said, "I am going to talk to him some day about it," because that is a monument to me. The idea that I had, is of making business more profitable and more enjoyable, making country life have a [inaudible] life and get more out of it themselves. I think we ought to be doing.

THELEN: I want to get into that aspect of your life in a few minutes, but I'd like to ask you a couple more questions about Sullivan first. When you went to see him first in the Chicago office, how big an office did he have? Do you recall?

WHEELER: Well, he had a very small office. [inaudible] very small. There were several people working there, but Sullivan was down and out at that time. He was really down and out. He had made a failure of some stuff he'd done down in the South, his marriage, he was separated from his wife. [inaudible] His office was [inaudible], he wasn't doing any great amount of business. In fact, I made up my mind after I employed him [inaudible] that I saved him and kept him on his feet 00:24:00a while longer. It was the last big building, the last big building of any consequence that he ever built. I think he designed a window or something for somebody else, but I think this was the last structure he ever built.

THELEN: Did he have any peculiar mannerisms when he would walk around looking at the bank going up; did he like to pull his ear, pull his hair?

WHEELER: No, I can't remember about that, he was largely taciturn. Yet he did, he got interested in standing on it, you know, [inaudible]. Him and my wife done talked a lot, I am sorry that she isn't here to tell you about it. She's been gone the past six years.

THELEN: I'm sorry.

WHEELER: Yeah, I'm a lost man. I lived with her for sixty-one years.

THELEN: Oh, I'm sorry. You met--you said you didn't take Sullivan to dinner with Frank Lloyd Wright? You did not?

WHEELER: No, I didn't take him. I'd rather we didn't say anything about that. My wife was quite peeved about it afterwards. She didn't say much about it at the moment. But afterwards, we were going down to the Madison Club, and met Sullivan over there at the Madison Club, but I don't want to talk about it.

THELEN: You don't.

WHEELER: No, I just--

THELEN: I'll turn it off.

WHEELER: Turn it off.

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WHEELER: Sullivan had divorced his wife, but I think he had divorced her, but [inaudible].

THELEN: Well, Frank Lloyd Wright--

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WHEELER: --about Sullivan.

THELEN: Okay. Was Sullivan a hard man to get along with, in your opinion?

WHEELER: He was very easy to get along with, I had no difficulty. I had some difficulty in one or two cases, for instance [pause] this one contract, I just hired a neighbor and I got the benefit of his partial supervision, but I had a--what is his name--Charlie [inaudible] gave him credit for building the 00:27:00building, so I had him in charge of it, but I [inaudible]. There is only one proposition that he sat hard on, and I had to give in. I wanted him bidding on the [inaudible].

THELEN: The terra cotta?

WHEELER: What?

THELEN: The terra cotta?

WHEELER: Terra cotta, yeah. And the terra cotta always had [inaudible] best terra cotta concern in Chicago. Now, the only concern was a man named Schneider, I remember that name quite well, at that time. He says, "The only man that can create, can make the stuff as I draw it and I don't want anyone else doing that." I went down there with him while they were in the process of making it, 00:28:00and I made the comment that, the president of the [inaudible] company, I think his name was Gates. I made a comment about it, I said, "Well, I hope they're [inaudible], 'cause this is costing an awful lot of money," and he said, "Shucks," he said, "I hope it isn't gonna break me, I'm doing it for [inaudible]."

THELEN: Well [pause] Sullivan, when he was--when you told him, for instance, that you didn't want to have a skylight put in, and you told him it would cost too much to put in a skylight, how did he take that?

WHEELER: Well, he--no, he didn't object to that particularly. Now, my recollection is 00:29:00that it, that skylight--you couldn't build it now for a lot lower--my recollection is, it was going to cost about $2,500. You got a lot of steel in that. The building was already costing more than I figured it, and I hadn't figured on putting a lot of money in the building. But no, he didn't object to that particularly. He didn't quite like that my idea of my first, lion statues in the lobby, you know, he wanted those you know. And I said no, I said, we could get along without those.

THELEN: How did he take that?

WHEELER: Huh?

THELEN: How did he take that?

WHEELER: Oh he, I just simply said, "Well, you know, these farmers come in here and see these lions, they would be scared to death and I know that." He just laughed. And I said, "Well," I said, "they're too pretentious. The idea is, this is a country bank, and I don't think we want that." I regretted it afterwards very much. I shouldn't have done it. It wouldn't have cost so very much more to put those things in there.

THELEN: Do you think he was honest with you about the cost of the bank?

WHEELER: Oh, definitely.

THELEN: And he told you it would cost such and such.

WHEELER: No, he had nothing to do with that, he just put the stuff together. He just drew the plans and specifications for what the material would be, this and that, and he sent me to the brick people, and there I had a devil of a time putting 00:31:00this addition on with the same brick, he's probably told you about that. And I didn't question that at all, I just took that all and accepted it. [pause] There's one more coming across my head. Lumber, [inaudible] finish--oak in the director's room, and [inaudible] and so forth. And a bid came in from an ordinary concern we know [inaudible]. It was doing a big business up at [St. Cloud?] anyway, and they wanted $11,000--a lot of money, a lot of money. And I 00:32:00thought that was too much, and so he said, "Well, you send it to Mathews here in Milwaukee." So I sent in Mathews, [inaudible], never heard of them. "[inaudible] and they are very exclusive, high-brow [inaudible] and they do only special work." And I thought, [inaudible]. The bid came in and it was $3,000 [inaudible]. And I couldn't hardly get my order in the mail. [inaudible] That's all I'll say about that now. Oh. Mrs. [Bank?], here, [Bank?] I think the lady 00:33:00was. She married a [Finch?], and they built a castle on the lake here and they copied the architecture--European architecture--and she went all over Europe buying all these, buying antiques and stuff that she wanted. She had a bar down in the basement and a conveyer, a stairway conveyer, and so forth. And [inaudible] she was a very wealthy woman, and [inaudible]. They had an auction and I went over there and I found the place had been furnished by this Mathews. [inaudible]

THELEN: Well, I'll be darned. How did Sullivan treat the farmers around?

WHEELER: Oh, he didn't treat them, he didn't have--he didn't contact them very much. The most contact he got was some of my friends and men at the other bank and merchants. But the farmers, I don't think they paid much attention to him.

THELEN: Did your friends like him? Did your friends like him?

WHEELER: Yes, they all liked him but there wasn't any--even I didn't appreciate what I 00:35:00was getting. It dawned on me as years went on. It came on me afterwards; shortly afterwards, I began to realize that we had that--had something that was a great advertisement [inaudible]. Yes, I--my bank says that this was my monument, designed 'cause I liked the ideas for the bank, and I wanted to carry out the ideas of the farming element. I wanted to [inaudible].

THELEN: Did you explain these ideas to Sullivan?

WHEELER: What?

THELEN: Did you explain your ideas to Sullivan?

WHEELER: Oh yes, very much so.

THELEN: How did he feel about--

WHEELER: Well, you know there are cases in the wall, all 00:36:00around there, glass cases inside the lobby. And they were meant for farmers [inaudible] their grains in [inaudible]. That's why we put them in there and that was Sullivan's suggestion. They were recessed into the wall, and [inaudible] you know.

THELEN: Did you suggest your idea about improving the condition of the farmers?

WHEELER: Oh, yes.

THELEN: How did he--

WHEELER: Oh, I talked to him very--I talked to him too much about it, I talked to him a lot about it. As a matter of fact, I think he that's how he finally accepted the contract because [inaudible] I didn't pay him what I should have paid him, because I didn't realize at the time, I thought if they didn't get to cost--but after it was all done and I found the effect it had worked just as well, I 00:37:00realized that I should have paid him more money. But I don't think he talked very much with the farmers. He might have talked some with them, but he got his ideas about my thoughts on the farming community, what I was trying to do, and he wanted to have a building, my office building [inaudible] lobby, what I explained that I was trying to do. That is why he put those cabinets in there--[inaudible] a long time [inaudible].

THELEN: Yeah, you're an expert on him. Can you think of anything else you would like to say about Sullivan?

WHEELER: No, I can't. I can say this--[inaudible]?

THELEN: No, I'm fine.

WHEELER: Well, I regretted saying here that I didn't manifest myself more vigorously to him and my approval of him before he got through. He knew I appreciated what he did although, but if I would have known what I know now I could have said a lot of things I wouldn't have said. The public really taught me, not the local public, I don't think the local public has [inaudible] up to this enormous value [inaudible] until the present generation. I went out there when they were 00:39:00celebrating the building of the bank, you know, and I hadn't been there for a long time. I used to know every man, woman, and child, either by name--

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THELEN: Just one other question, personally. Did Sullivan drink much on the job?

WHEELER: Did Sullivan what?

THELEN: Did Sullivan drink much on the job?

WHEELER: No, not at all.

THELEN: No? He was supposed to be quite actively drinking at that time.

WHEELER: Oh no, that's wrong, he wasn't. He was sober and perfectly calm when I first met him, [inaudible] and asked him to come up to the house. I didn't even know at that time that he had been that way. I found that out afterwards. Oh yes, he 00:40:00was bad, though, he was bad for a time. [inaudible] [coughing] Not when he did my bank. I think he was on the well-wagon.

THELEN: So he never, he never showed up drunk or anything?

WHEELER: Oh, never, never. [inaudible] We never even discussed it, [inaudible]. Never even thought that, as I just said, I never realized he'd been that way until afterwards.

THELEN: Well, now, it seems--I guess it is not that big a change from Louis Sullivan to Harry Luman Russell.

WHEELER: What?

THELEN: The change from Louis Sullivan now to Harry Luman Russell. This isn't such a--Dean Russell.

WHEELER: Oh, Dean Russell.

THELEN: [inaudible] change, not a big change for you.

WHEELER: Well, of course, the Dean now--I can't remember so much about--I saw Dean frequently because I went to Madison, you see. We are only a few hours, couple hours away from Madison, and I used to go in there and I had them publish, they'd publish some weekly papers. I subscribed to them, some of them, and we mailed them to our banks all around the country, but I admired him very much. He was very enthusiastic and very interested and very helpful, and I liked him, and 00:42:00he liked me. He was very congenial. I was awfully sorry that I didn't see more of him. Later on in years, I think, [inaudible] in '19. When I sold the bank...

THELEN: Well, at the time--now, I know someone who is doing some research on Russell. I know someone who's doing some research about Russell's life, and he tells me that Russell was kind of a hard man to get along with. In other words, Russell told people how he wanted things done.

WHEELER: Well now, I could elaborate on that a little bit. Russell knew [inaudible], 00:43:00he knew his business, and he was it, [inaudible]. He wasn't pompous or anything of that kind, but he just knew he was the real thing, same as Sullivan did about--Sullivan being an architect, and I worshipped him. But as far as agreeableness, I couldn't think of anybody more agreeable and charming than Dean Russell was. Seems to me [inaudible], I would say that he might have been rather arbitrary having younger men under him, subordinate to him, to do things and do corrections and they might have been arguing about it, making suggestions, I 00:44:00don't know that. I wouldn't be surprised. A lot of young fellas want their ideas in things too, but Dean Russell was a very considerate man. I can't imagine him being arbitrary on--I would think he would have great understanding of a younger man, [inaudible]. I'm sure he did.

THELEN: When you went into discuss the banker-farmer movement with him, he was always friendly with you?

WHEELER: Oh, yes. Oh, definitely. He--oh, he was more than that. He smiled at me, [inaudible] how I was doing. One morning, he put on a special train to go around the state, [inaudible]--of course, they had charge of it, of the 00:45:00train--[inaudible] paid expenses, and all that stuff, [inaudible] Wisconsin Bankers Association. And I was part of the Wisconsin Bankers' Association in 1916-1917. And I knew all the bankers in the state and they knew me, and they were active in it.

THELEN: Well, did the Dean ever discuss his hopes for the farming communities with you? Did Dean Russell ever discuss what he hoped might happen to farmers with you?

WHEELER: Well, I'll tell you something, a remark he made after [inaudible] I had an opportunity to talk to him. [pause] [inaudible] to talk to him, and I said, 00:46:00"Now, you know this seed that you've been getting here is planted to a particular area that we are going to grow this corn," I said, "and you know"--and then I had showed him some examples of what had happened [inaudible]. And I said, "When you know where they got a million bushels, in Illinois, and they keep on doing what they are doing now, they will have ten million. What are we going to do with all of this corn?" And he looked at me and he says, "You won't live long enough to have that problem."

THELEN: He was wrong.

WHEELER: How wrong he was!

THELEN: You mean, he really didn't think that surplus would form a problem?

WHEELER: No--oh, yes. Or, at that time, it was--no, it wasn't a problem at that time. Yes, and no. Farmers didn't handle this stuff right, and they didn't--they weren't scientific and they weren't patient. I--it wasn't until his agricultural work that we had took a part in, it wasn't until after that that they began to wake up, and took care of those things themselves, you know. And I could see the increase. I took about ten ears of corn over to Madison, in a prize, it took first prize in the state. And I brought it over, and I rented a piece of land 00:48:00not beyond to my place but across the track, and I see they got land [inaudible], the man went in and I said, "You know, you use a [cob?] down to the end of this line, and then," I said, "don't use it again, then use another cob and then when it does [inaudible], you can come back to this other cob." I wanted to do that, so the [colonization?] would be best and my canning company [inaudible] and talked to the farmers around the country that I visited, and it was the same as we were.

THELEN: Well, this corn, did you ever talk about this corn problem with Dean Russell? You talked about this corn with Dean Russell quite a bit, didn't you?

WHEELER: Oh, yes, but I got the inspiration from another man--what was his name? 00:49:00[inaudible] One of the originators of the Agriculture Department there.

THELEN: Mr. Henry?

WHEELER: Henry, that's it. I heard him talk in Beloit [inaudible] to the bankers down there. He gave a talk and I was tremendously impressed by it, that's what got me started on it.

THELEN: Did Russell--getting back to Russell. Did Russell have any interesting mannerisms, did he--when you went to talk to him? Did he put his feet up on the table, or--

WHEELER: No, never, no, neither did I. No, we were just natural human beings, we weren't trying to show off to each other--have our fingers in our vest or anything of that kind. No, he is a very good scout, I liked him very much. You 00:50:00got to go fishing with the man, I went with him and he with me.

THELEN: Was he a good fisherman? [inaudible]

WHEELER: Yes, he was. He liked to fish, but he wasn't crazy as I was about it. No, he had his fish and tackle along with him, and his boy, but I didn't see them very much fishing. I guess they got some fish. Well, that was quite a dunking they got. I went down all over, about ready to swim. That water was pretty--about up to my hips. [inaudible] shallow, you know.

THELEN: What did he talk about on fishing trips, Russell? [pause]

WHEELER: Oh, I can only say the general way went the conversation. It was probably more mine than his. I talked about my banking problem. See, I came in and took over the bank when I was 22 years old. And I--my father used to come down most every day to look me over, and he lived in La Crosse, [inaudible] up in La Crosse. And I talked to him about the bank and my ambition and these things that I talked to you now about, I talked to him, and he talked with me about what could be done in the way of development of the farm business, and I found the help encouraging to me. But I don't think there was any special 00:52:00subject that he was particularly interested in. I don't even think [inaudible], I think she passed away and all I knew was his boy and the only child I ever knew that he had [inaudible].

THELEN: Did he like--did Dean Russell like baseball, for instance? Did Dean Russell also talk about baseball?

WHEELER: I think so, I don't know, they all liked football. I was never so crazy about football, except for when--except for when I was a little boy myself, then I played ball and I loved it. Played it like the dickens, but I didn't--I played 00:53:00football a little bit, but not much.

THELEN: Well, did Dean Russell talk about this much, talk about, oh you know, a football game or something?

WHEELER: No, I don't--I had no doubt he did, but I don't recall it. I don't recall at all. I was always so much interested in agricultural thought [inaudible] that I was doing and that the University was doing, and I know I felt it was a crime that more of the young people weren't going to the University, and that's--I was right about that, too.

THELEN: Did politics ever enter into your discussion with--

WHEELER: Politics?

THELEN: Yeah.

WHEELER: No, I think both the Dean and I--I think both the Dean and I avoided that subject purposely.

THELEN: You had a difference of opinion?

WHEELER: No, we had no difference of opinion. No, no, no. We were both alike, we were a little conservative, prudent, businessmen. Oh no, but we--I was [inaudible] and he made the railroads down, he got the railroads fare reduced two cents, see, [inaudible] tell the railroads how to do their job. And I 00:55:00thought that it's never the government's business, telling a man how much he can charge. It is his business, corporation. But no, we never got into any political discussions, and I think the both of us avoided that.

THELEN: For any particular reason?

WHEELER: Yes, I avoided politics because I [inaudible]. Well, I thought was detrimental to my business, that I wasn't supposed to be a politician and I didn't want to take any leadership in it. I was wrong, entirely wrong about it. No question about that, [inaudible]. Because later on in years I got very active, and Governor Philipp's [inaudible] Wisconsin Bank Association. He put me 00:56:00on the Council of Defense, Wisconsin Council of Defense, representing the banks at that time, and I think that the country is just too indifferent to their duties in politics, and I was one of the guilty ones too.

THELEN: Well, you mentioned that you were on the Wisconsin Council for Defense. I presume then that you opposed Senator La Follette's war stand. I presume--

WHEELER: He was a--I called him a renegade. He wasn't an American citizen. He 00:57:00was opposed to the first war, you know. [inaudible] socialist man.

THELEN: Berger?

WHEELER: Berger, yeah, and I got--I don't think, I don't think La Follette and he were particularly social themselves, I don't think they met much. I guess they knew of each other and all that stuff, but I didn't classify La Follette as a socialist, [inaudible]. I just didn't like his attitude in compelling--the same thing with Franklin Roosevelt.

THELEN: Well now, you might be interested in this. There is a historian who says that the same people who supported La Follette were the same people who 00:58:00supported Joe McCarthy. How does that strike you? Some other people say the opposite.

WHEELER: I don't know, I didn't like McCarthy, and I didn't know him. All I knew was what I read in the papers and I never met him. But I didn't admire him, and I don't think McCarthy--you think that the McCarthy group grew out of the development that La Follette started?

THELEN: I didn't say this, someone else has said this.

WHEELER: Yes. I don't know, I don't know [inaudible]. I would imagine that 00:59:00McCarthy was a very young fellow. He must have been a lot younger than I am, and I wouldn't--he might have been a friend of La Follette's, you know, I don't know.

THELEN: But when you think of people in Columbus or in Milwaukee who like La Follette, you probably knew some who thought La Follette was pretty good. You probably knew some people who did like La Follette.

WHEELER: I don't--La Follette wasn't popular in my day in Columbus.

THELEN: Oh, I see.

WHEELER: No, no. Oh no, I don't think so. No.

THELEN: Well, what did you feel was wrong about McCarthy? What did you feel was wrong about McCarthy?

WHEELER: About McCarthy?

THELEN: Yeah.

WHEELER: Oh, I didn't like his attitude--he was a Senator, wasn't he? He was too 01:00:00blunt, and I didn't think he was at all politic, and that he was a crude [inaudible] individual to be able to sit down there-- senator, a United States senator, for Wisconsin. I didn't know the man, and I only judged him from what he did and the newspapers [inaudible], and I thought he invited trouble and all this and that, and it didn't do any good, and I wasn't afraid of him at all. What I meant was I didn't think he was upsetting the nation in any way, and he was probably upsetting himself more than anybody else. [pause] So you got some discussion on here, Mr. Man, that I'm not so--

[tape break]

THELEN: Look at that, see it is turning now.

WHEELER: And the rest is--what?

THELEN: You see how it's turning? You see this thing turning?

WHEELER: Yeah, I saw that.

THELEN: Now watch.

WHEELER: Because I want to talk, but you know I think you give me a little advice on that. I think when I am going to talk into that machine, I think along outline the subject generally as I am going to discuss. [inaudible] Perhaps some guide, so that I can talk--

[tape break]

WHEELER: Sometimes when I talk to you about that, I forget myself, and you get me then.

THELEN: What do you mean, get you?

WHEELER: I don't need any guide, really.